Guest Goose: Talking Hades with our Dad

In this bonus episode we discuss the character of Hades from Hercules with our dad.

Follow us @gabblesisters on Instagram.

Email us at gabblesisterspodcast@gmail.com.

Warning: in this episode we touch on topics including infanticide, animal death, and violence in schools.

Bibliography:

• Hercules (1997)
• Cave isolation experiments, Michel Siffre (1962 and 1972)
• BBC cave experiment (2021)
• "If you can't join them, beat them: Effects of social exclusion on aggressive behavior." - Twenge et al., Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (2001)

Transcript

Intro

Bronwen 0:01

Can you... you're taking over a bit.

Father Gabble 0:05

I'm sorry.

Bronwen 0:05

You're taking over a bit.

Father Gabble 0:08

I'll stop now. I'll stop.

Bronwen 0:08

Will you?

Father Gabble 0:09

You're in charge.

Both 0:10

Are we?

Megan 0:12

Are we ever?

Megan 0:17

Welcome to Gabble Sisters. Join us on our walking tour of every Disney animated feature, taking in the history, psychology, and music of a randomly selected film each episode. Think Goose. Forward march.

Megan 0:37

Hello, Bronwen.

Bronwen 0:39

Hello, Megan.

Megan 0:40

We are here for a bonus recording. Off the back of our Hercules episode.

Bronwen 0:46

Yes.

Megan 0:46

And we have a special guest with us today.

Bronwen 0:49

Yes, we do.

Megan 0:50

Would you like to introduce our special guest, Bronwen?

Bronwen 0:53

No. Can you please introduce yourself for the record?

Father Gabble 1:01

Hello.

Bronwen 1:02

Who are you?

Father Gabble 1:04

I'm the father of, the father of Megan and Bronwen.

Megan 1:09

Hello.

Father Gabble 1:09

Hello.

Megan 1:10

It's nice to have you here.

Father Gabble 1:11

Well, thank you. Am I the first guest?

Megan 1:13

You are the first guest.

Father Gabble 1:14

That's quite a privilege.

Megan 1:16

Yeah.

Father Gabble 1:17

And your listeners will be interested to know that I am honouring that by wearing my full-length apprentice sorcerer's uniform here with full-length cloak, full-length hat and wand. I'm ready for this.

Megan 1:31

Yes. We are seeing that in front of us right now. So, Daddy, welcome to the podcast.

Father Gabble 1:38

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Megan 1:40

Excellent. Would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners? Say a bit about yourself and anything about Disney that you'd like to tell people?

Father Gabble 1:51

Well, I guess most importantly, I'm your father.

Megan 1:54

Yes.

Father Gabble 1:54

So obey me.

Megan 1:56

Oh

Bronwen 1:57

No.

Megan 1:58

The hierarchy has changed. I thought I was in charge as the older sister, but no.

Bronwen 2:04

I never thought I was in charge.

Father Gabble 2:07

In terms of myself, I've spent my life being a research scientist. I'm sure your mother would have liked me to be something more useful, like a plumber or a plasterer or something. It's the only thing I know how to do. And Disney, I don't... I was trying to think what Disney film was my first memory. And it all gets a bit mixed up and vague. I think it was The Jungle Book. It might have been Dumbo, but I think most likely the the The Jungle Book. And I've I've sort of enjoyed Disney ever since.

Bronwen 2:42

What is your favourite Disney film currently?

Father Gabble 2:46

Oh crikey, what is my favourite Disney film? So Lion King is obviously a spectacular one with music, but I think it might be driven by villains.

Megan 3:00

Appropriately for our conversation today.

Father Gabble 3:03

And which film has the greatest villain? There can only be one. I mean there are plenty of great Disney villains. Remembering the the um Jungle Book, I I enjoyed Shere Khan. But I think there's one Disney villain that stands above head and shoulders above every other Disney villain. And she's just superb.

Megan 3:29

Oh she!

Father Gabble 3:30

Yes!

Megan 3:30

Excellent!

Father Gabble 3:32

And if she doesn't scare you, no evil thing will.

Megan 3:37

Who could we be talking about here?

Father Gabble 3:38

So I think because of Cruella de Vil, 101 Dalmatians might be my favourite. And I would have loved to have been round the table at Disney when s they were sort of talking about what film should we do for children next? And somebody says, Well, how about this really evil woman who wants to kidnap and kill, presumably it's 99 puppies and the the two parents to make into a fur coat? I think that must have just been such a glorious moment where they all said, What a fantastic, brilliant idea. This is so suitable for children and went ahead with it. So yeah, perhaps 101 Dalmations because of Cruella de Vil.

Megan 4:20

Oh, very good. Yeah, I'm a big fan of 101 Dalmatians.

Father Gabble 4:24

What's your favourite then, Bronwen?

Megan 4:26

Encanto.

Father Gabble 4:27

I don't even know that one. I don't think that's a proper one. Megan?

Megan 4:31

The Lion King.

Father Gabble 4:32

The Lion King. The Lion King's

Is Hercules a true hero?

Father Gabble 4:34

very good.

Megan 4:38

And to bring us round to the conversation we're having today, you wanted to chat to us about Hades.

Father Gabble 4:46

I did.

Megan 4:47

Because Hades is one of your favourites.

Father Gabble 4:49

I am team Hades. I like Hades. I relate to Hades. And so I'd like to come and defend Hades.

Megan 4:58

Oh dear, okay.

Bronwen 5:01

How do you relate to Hades?

Megan 5:03

Oh, the psychology session begins.

Bronwen 5:05

Of course.

Father Gabble 5:06

I think Hades is dealing with the real world as it is, isn't it? You know, he has to deal with all sort of well, we'll come on for what what Zeus did to him later. But let's start. I'd I'd like to start just by saying Hercules, we're ignoring all the factual inaccuracies, aren't we, at this point in the ...

Megan 5:26

We've done that. We're moving on.

Father Gabble 5:28

Hercules or Heracles. He was no hero in that. First of all, he was just born with his super strength. He didn't do anything to deserve it. It was just entirely privilege. And then everything he did after that was to get back to Olympus. He didn't want to save the world from evil things and save damsels in distress for its for its own benefit. He wanted to get back to Olympus. And at one point, you know, he'd done all this sort of saving people from monsters or whatever. Realised he wasn't getting back to Olympus. I think Zeus at that point in the film had told him, No, yeah, you can't come back yet. So he went to Phil and said, I'm not doing this anymore. So when the reward of Olympus was taken away, he didn't want to do anything good, and then finally it was just all driven by lust. And it wasn't for his own, it wasn't trying to just make the world a better place. So so Hercules is no hero, I don't think.

Megan 6:33

Right. Okay.

Bronwen 6:36

So that's a hot take. As James would say if he was here, it's a theory.

Father Gabble 6:43

So Hades.

Megan 6:45

We're not allowed to challenge your idea of Hercules.

Father Gabble 6:49

Well you can, but I think I've laid out factual evidence to support it.

Megan 6:53

I think one of the things we talked about in the main episode was the difference between the ancient Greek idea of heroism and the modern day, particularly 90s idea of heroism. And what the film does, Hercules' arc, is that he is going for this ancient Greek idea of heroism. And that's not good enough when he goes to Zeus in the temple and Zeus says, No, you're not a true hero yet. And then we have him going on to save Meg, even though it doesn't benefit himself.

Father Gabble 7:26

No, but it well, he he he wants a relationship with Meg, doesn't he? It's not like he's going to save some old hag somewhere that he doesn't like at all. He saves the object of his lust.

Megan 7:41

He's in love with her. That's what we're presented with love, not lust.

Father Gabble 7:48

He is saving the object of his love, then. He's not doing it selflessly, he's doing it because he's got this particular attachment with her, wants to be with her, and and so will save her.

Megan 8:02

Well no, because he sacrifices himself. He's willing to sacrifice himself. He throws himself into the pool of dead people.

Father Gabble 8:09

Yes.

Megan 8:10

And you see him going towards his death, and the Fates getting ready to snip his life force, and he's only made immortal at the last moment because he was willing to give up his life for Meg, so he wouldn't be with her.

Father Gabble 8:24

Well, death isn't such a bad thing, is it? There, or perhaps anywhere, in that he would have been dead with Meg. So I think he was still doing it selfishly.

Bronwen 8:33

I mean, the way that death is presented is not very fun, it's just a whole load of ghost people swirling in a pool of

Megan 8:41

Yeah, it's not very romantic.

Bronwen 8:42

No.

Father Gabble 8:43

This comes back to perhaps why Hades is why he is.

Megan 8:48

Mm-hmm.

Father Gabble 8:49

So I've done some research, because I know you guys like

Bronwen 8:53

It's always a great sign when someone says I've done my own research.

Father Gabble 8:58

So let's let's go let's go back to the beginning of what what happens with Hades. So we've got Kronos, who is married to Rhea.

Megan 9:07

Okay, so just to be clear, we are going back to the Greek myth.

Father Gabble 9:10

We're going back to the Greek myth,

Megan 9:11

Which is quite removed from the film.

Father Gabble 9:13

We might be moving in and out of myth and Disney. They're both both sort of two different versions of the truth, perhaps.

Bronwen 9:21

Well, yes, we we spoke about that. Yes, yes.

Father Gabble 9:25

So Kronos and Rhea, they they they first of all have a daughter, Hestia. Now Kronos has been told in a prophecy that one of his children will overthrow him, which he doesn't doesn't like the idea of that. So the way he thinks, oh, the work I'll deal with this, is that he swallows Hestia whole. So Rhea doesn't seem overly put off by this type of behaviour, and they have another child, another daughter, Demeter, and he does the same, swallows her. Now, Rhea obviously is not very quick on the uptake, because then that happens to the third daughter, Hera. Then Hades is the first son, and he's swallowed whole by Kronos. Then Poseidon is born, so this is the second son, fifth child, and uh Kronos swallows him. It's taken five children for Rhea to work out there's a pattern developing here. And the youngest child is Zeus. She wraps a stone in swaddling clothes, hides Zeus, gives Kronos a stone, who can't appear to tell the difference between a stone and uh and a baby, and Kronos swallows the stone thinking he swallowed Zeus. Zeus is then free to sort of grow up healthy away from Kronos, while all the other children are just kind of in Kronos' belly, it seems. Then later, Zeus is the one that challenges Kronos and forces a regurgitation or a sort of rebirth of the five children, and they come out in the opposite order in which they went in. So it was last in, first out, which means Hades then comes out sort of as the youngest son. He's had his role reversed with Zeus. Now, this isn't going to go down well, is it? We've got examples where if you usurp the oldest in the Bible, it doesn't work out. So Cain and Abel. So, you know, Cain was born first, Abel second. God says, actually, you know what? I rather prefer what Abel's doing to you, Cain. So Cain, Cain kills Abel. Jacob and Esau, Isaac and Ishmael. Reversals, and then it always goes a bit wrong. And it's a bit like, imagine if I came along and said, Megan, you're no longer the eldest daughter.

Megan 11:52

What? It's part of my identity.

Father Gabble 11:54

Bronwen is now going to be the eldest daughter.

Bronwen 11:57

Thank you.

Father Gabble 11:58

And she's going to start giving you commands what to do.

Megan 12:02

No.

Father Gabble 12:02

So Zeus by this point has sort of just kind of adopted, well, I'm in charge now, even though he's younger than Hades, just because Rhea saved him, but not Hades. So that's, I think, the first thing we can look at to say Hades is a product of the things that have happened to him.

Megan 12:21

In the myth.

Father Gabble 12:22

In the myth. The three brothers divide up the world. And Zeus, being the one in charge, takes the best thing. So he takes the land, he takes Mount Olympus, where they're always having parties, whatnot. Poseidon gets the sea. Hades gets the underworld. So first of all, he's usurped by his brother, and then he's sent underground to look after all these miserable dead people.

Megan 12:51

Well, they drew a lottery, didn't they, for the sea and the underworld.

Father Gabble 12:56

Are we talking myth or Disney?

Megan 12:58

I'm talking myth.

Father Gabble 12:59

Right. So at this point we might go into the Disney reality, since it is the Disney Hades I'm mostly going to defend. So Hades, when they're having the party at the beginning when Hercules has been born, Hades comes up and he's the coolest one there with all of his blue flaming uh.

Megan 13:17

Lots of them are pretty cool.

Father Gabble 13:19

Not as cool as Hades, though. Hades absolutely coolest. And and then, you know, um Zeus says, you know, why don't you come and sort of join us? And Hades says, Well, unlike you guys lounging about up here, I regrettably have a full-time gig that you, Zeus, by the way, charitably bestowed on me. So Zeus is the one that sent Hades underground to look after dead people. So two things here, I think. One is, well, he's sent underground. And underground is a bit miserable. I've done some research on that. Which we'll come back to.

Megan 13:56

We'll come back to that.

Bronwen 13:58

Wow, you went deep in your research.

Father Gabble 14:01

And the second thing is he's also excluded. He didn't choose to be sent underground. And so he there's this sort of social exclusion.

Living underground

Father Gabble 14:14

I wondered, first of all, was it being sent underground and spending the whole time with all the dead that was upsetting him? And so that led me on to some research about people going down caves for a while to live. And the big experiments were Michel Siffre in 1960s and 1970s, and he ended up spending six months down in a cave with no light-dark cycles available to him.

Megan 14:46

Oh, was this the one where they were testing circadian rhythms? Yeah, yeah.

Father Gabble 14:50

That was the thing. So, and what what they found, so circadian rhythms are the natural biological rhythms that are going on in the body, and there are various ones. The obvious one is the sleep-wake cycle, but there's also temperature cycles that go up and down, there's chemical cycles that change throughout the day. And he found it sort of disrupted the circadian rhythms, and they all get out of sync with each other to begin with. Then eventually they resynchronise, but not necessarily back to 24 hours. He found it all quite distressing being underground. There's a bit of a sad story. So that down in a cave, there were mice around. So he laid traps for the mice so they didn't eat his food or gnaw at him in the night. But there was one mouse he befriended.

Megan 15:41

Was it Mickey?

Father Gabble 15:43

I hope not, considering how this story is going to end up. And he gave the but he was giving the mouse crumbs of food to to eat. So the mouse was his... he also had no social contact with anybody up at the top. So the mouse was his only social contact. And then the mouse accidentally got caught in one of the traps he'd set for mice. So it's kind of like his own fault. But his friend mouse died, and that was towards the end. And he said it was the most distressed he's ever felt in his life, and he was suicidal. So the isolation followed by some trauma that we normally cope with, oh, we'd be a bit upset, but then think actually I can get another mice from the pet shop tomorrow, it's alright. Then sort of really upset him, and so there's this thing about mood. The BBC, interestingly, in I think 2001 repeated the experiment, or they sent 15 people down a cave for 40 days. But that was a bit different because they asked for volunteers. And so you kind of get people who I quite like the idea of going underground and away from the world. And for them, two-thirds of them at the end said, please can we stay a bit longer?

Megan 17:02

Oh wow, my goodness.

Father Gabble 17:05

Isolation by itself, we know, or Bronwen will probably know a lot more, isn't necessarily bad if it's chosen and if it's what people want to do.

Bronwen 17:13

Yes.

Father Gabble 17:14

Hades didn't choose to be isolated. He was excluded. So that brings me on to my second bit of research.

Social exclusion

Father Gabble 17:23

Social exclusion and aggressive behaviour. Like trying to overthrow your father. Oh no, your brother, sorry. So this is a paper. If you can't join them, beat them. Effects of social exclusion on aggressive behaviour. And it was published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology in the year 2001.

Bronwen 17:50

So it's a little bit old, 25 years old.

Father Gabble 17:53

Well, 2001 doesn't seem old to me.

Bronwen 17:58

It's 25 years ago.

Father Gabble 18:00

I'd been working quite a long time by then.

Bronwen 18:02

Oh, it was just yesterday, it's fine.

Father Gabble 18:04

Well that's probably about when I peaked and it's been downhill ever since. Um so they were looking primarily sort of uh at why people in America might go in and shoot people in schools. So pretty ... And it had been noticed that a lot of these people were sort of socially excluded people, they were isolated, they were very angry with the world. And then the question is what causes what? Because obviously, if you are an angry antisocial person, people don't really want to know you. So it could be that being angry causes exclusion. But they wanted to look, could exclusion cause anger? So they did this experiment. I should say, I'm not a psychologist, I've never studied psychology. I have no authority and experience to speak about this at all, but that's never stopped me before.

Bronwen 18:57

That's the most humble we've ever heard you.

Father Gabble 19:02

I know how to read a paper. They're delightfully interesting, you know, just what what people, what psychologists will will do to other people. Um so these people, first of all, they got a group of psychology students and said, you have to be part of this study to be part of to do your course.

Bronwen 19:20

Again, that's showing the age of this paper, they wouldn't be allowed to do that now.

Father Gabble 19:23

Oh, right. Yeah.

Bronwen 19:23

You're not allowed to say you must do this for your course. Like that's not ethical.

Father Gabble 19:27

They said they must. I kind of quite like that because it takes away the volunteer bias that you can get.

Bronwen 19:32

Yes.

Father Gabble 19:34

Forcing people into an experiment I think helps reduce some confounding problems in these.

Bronwen 19:41

Bring up other problems, potentially.

Father Gabble 19:43

Um yes, so anyway, so first thing they did with these students is give them a personality test. And it was a broad-ranging personality test.

Bronwen 19:53

Which one was it?

Father Gabble 19:54

It doesn't say actually in the methodology that I don't think... probably designed for this, because they give them then some honest feedback about where they believe this person is on the introvert and extrovert spectrum. And that builds some trust and credibility in what they've done. But then they hit them with they are randomly assigned some feedback on how well they're going to fit in with society longer term. So, some people they give a nice affirming statement, they say, You're the type who has rewarding relationships throughout life. You're likely to have a long and stable marriage and have friendships that will last into your later years. The odds are that you'll always have friends and people who care about you.

Bronwen 20:40

That's nice.

Father Gabble 20:41

It is nice.

Bronwen 20:42

Yeah.

Father Gabble 20:43

But to another half of students who, you know, think they're just part of a personality test um experiment, they say, you're the type who will end up alone later in life. You may have friends and relationships now, but by your mid-twenties, most of these will have drifted away. You may even marry or have several marriages, but these are likely to be short-lived and not continue into your thirties. Relationships don't last, and when you're past the age where people are constantly forming new relationships, the odds are you'll end up being alone more and more.

Megan 21:22

That's so mean.

Father Gabble 21:23

It is isn't it. So you've got this half of the group are being given, you know, affirming things about their how how well they fit into society, and half are saying, no, nobody's going to like you, you're you're going to be excluded. They're then asked to write an essay that they say is they're they're going to mark each other's essays. Some people are given good feedback, and some people are given bad feedback. They're told it's this other student who's given you feedback. And the feedback might be a very good essay, or it might be one of the worst essays I've ever read. So we've got this. First of all, they're told you're gonna be in society or you're not. Then they're given some nasty or good feedback.

Bronwen 22:10

So that feedback, I'm assuming that was sort of both groups received both feedback.

Father Gabble 22:14

They did at this point, yes.

Bronwen 22:16

Right, yes. So sort to be able to cross and analyse the response to that feedback. Yes.

Father Gabble 22:22

Then they're asked to help assess the person who gave them feedback on their essay. In particular, for some roles within the department that are highly sought after, they're going to give you useful experience for getting a career later in life. So it's your chance to sort of either be neutral about assessing the other person or your chance to give them a bit of a kicking. And what they found is of those that had had negative feedback in the essay, so all of these have been told your essay is not very good. But now we split it into people who were told they're part of society or going to be part of society and those that aren't. The ones that were going to be part of society scored the other person twice as highly as those that when they'd been told previously that they weren't going to be part of society. So they've kicked out, they've got their their revenge in. They've all had negative feedback, but whether they feel part of society or not has changed their response to that. And then there's various various control control groups. If they'd had positive feedback, that actually overcame being told you're not part of society. So it's this combination of feeling excluded and then having a kick to your ego together is rather ra rather bad. And they they followed up with some other experiments, such as rather than a psychology questionnaire telling them whether they were likely to have friends or not, they were all asked to mingle in groups of six and then identify two people they'd like to do a shared task with. And so they all they all did that. They were then told, they were split into two groups, and whatever they'd said about other people didn't matter at all. They were just randomised to being told, everybody wants to work with you, or nobody wants to work with you.

Megan 24:20

I'm so glad this wasn't me.

Bronwen 24:23

I think I would have worked out as a psychology student that this was a test.

Father Gabble 24:27

Well, so they did exclude, I wondered about that. They did say they actually excluded some students because they'd expressed some cynicism about what was going what was going on. The quite fun thing was though, after they were told nobody wants to work with you or you're somebody's going to work with you, they played a game with with other people, and sometimes it could be a game with people they know has given negative or told given negative feedback.

Bronwen 24:52

It's quite complicated study design.

Father Gabble 24:53

In another essay. ... Yes. Sometimes they were playing a game they were told with somebody they'd never met before. Before the game starts, they can choose the level of pain they inflict on the opponent in the game should the opponent lose. Now the pain is noise, it's white noise through headphones, and they can adjust the volume and the duration. And those that had been told nobody wants to be your friend and work with you gave twice the volume and twice the duration of painful noise to their opponents, whether they were part of a group that had given negative feedback or whether they were completely neutral who they didn't know before. So this antagonistic violent uh behaviour extends not only to people who excluded them, but just to the average Joe public out there.

Bronwen 25:51

Right.

Father Gabble 25:52

That's my research. So Hades, isolated in a cave, circadian rhythms all over the place, probably probably for a while, and it's cold and and and

Bronwen 26:01

I mean he is a god.

Father Gabble 26:02

Yes.

Bronwen 26:03

So he might not have a circadian rhythm in the way that we understand a circadian rhythm.

Father Gabble 26:07

That's true, yes. Yeah, they didn't study gods in in the experiments.

Bronwen 26:12

Unfortunately, there's very little psychological research on gods. Psychologists don't generally believe gods exist.

Megan 26:17

A gap in the field.

Father Gabble 26:18

But then he's been excluded by Zeus, he's been sent away, and so not surprisingly, he's going to kick back against the system that's excluded him. So I think Hades is living in this sort of real world of knocks in life and sometimes feeling included, sometimes not feeling included. He's a much more real character, I think, than than Hercules, who's just out for himself anyway, as we've already established and all agreed.

Megan 26:45

Have we? Have we all agreed on that?

Bronwen 26:48

So I think the thing that brings what the what I brought to the podcast and what brought you brought to the podcast is about this film is about our acceptance and relationship with our peers.

Father Gabble 27:02

Yes.

Bronwen 27:03

So you've talked spoken about Hades and Hades' relationship specifically with his brother, and brought in research around what it the impact of being rejected by others can do. I interestingly did the same thing around Hercules, and I looked at it from a neurodiversity perspective and the impact of being neurodiverse in a neurotypical society and the impact that that has on self-esteem, on relationships, all those sorts of things. I fundamentally disagree with your view that Hercules is just doing this for lust, love. Um he's doing this to be accepted by society because that is what effectively we're always all trying to do. Humans are social creatures. And if we bring in Hades here as a humanoid type thing, we're all looking to be in a group because evolutionary speaking, it makes sense. We're group animals. We want to be in a group because groups keep us safe. So I agree with you to a certain extent that that's what this film was about, and the impact of not fitting in. So I think what we're saying mirrors each other quite interestingly.

Father Gabble 28:11

I think with uh with Hercules, he was told what he needed to do to get back into the group, really, wasn't he? That Zeus told him he had to prove himself or whatever whatever. Hades is not given any way back into the group. They're all parting up on Mount Olympus. They send him down to look after the dead. I do think it's a shame Disney didn't introduce Cerberus, because of course in the original Greek

Megan 28:37

They do.

Father Gabble 28:38

Did I miss it?

Megan 28:39

Yes, um Cerberus appears twice.

Father Gabble 28:41

Oh.

Megan 28:42

So when you first see Hades go down into the underworld, he throws a slab of meat at Cerberus.

Father Gabble 28:50

Right.

Megan 28:51

And then later on when Hercules goes down to save Meg, he rides in on Cerberus. And that was actually the twelfth labour of Hercules.

Father Gabble 29:02

Ah, right, right. Thank you for the correction.

Megan 29:05

No, that's fine. Um I was I was going to say he's not on his own down there, he's got a dog.

Father Gabble 29:10

He's got a dog, and

Megan 29:10

He's got Pain and Panic.

Father Gabble 29:12

He's got Pain and Panic. That's another thing you can kind of be sympathetic to in that Pain and Panic are rubbish. They don't do the tasks given to them and they don't admit it to Hades.

Megan 29:25

They are bad minions.

Father Gabble 29:27

He can't then fix the problem of trying to kill Hercules because they've messed up and they haven't done it properly.

Megan 29:35

We see on the count that there are a lot of people in the underworld with him. It's five with ten zeros afterwards.

Father Gabble 29:41

Yes.

Megan 29:42

A lot of people down there.

Father Gabble 29:43

They're kind of dead people floating around. They're not really his sort of peer well, peer acceptance or whatever. Yes.

Megan 29:51

I thought there was an interesting line in what the Greek chorus are singing at that moment, the Muses. They sing he ran the underworld, but thought the dead were dull and uncouth.

Father Gabble 30:00

Oh, there you are.

Megan 30:01

So he's above them.

Father Gabble 30:03

Well, he is a god and he's alive. They're dead. Yes.

Bronwen 30:08

So so putting on your honorary psychologist hat.

Father Gabble 30:11

Yes, I'm now a psych I've I've read one psychology paper, I am now an expert.

Bronwen 30:16

Having read that paper and your understanding of Hades, what what do you think needs to happen for Hades? Like what should have happened to give Hades justice?

Father Gabble 30:25

Well, maybe a sort of timeshare of having to look af after the the the dead. So sometimes Zeus would go down and do it, and and sometimes Poseidon. So yes.

Bronwen 30:38

That does seem fair. Putting one person in charge of that does seem quite.

Father Gabble 30:42

You're gonna end up a bit embittered, aren't you?

Bronwen 30:44

Yeah.

Megan 30:44

I think this is the only motivation that the film gives him, really, if we ignore all of the Greek myth stuff that the film ignored, then you just see Hades being resentful of the fact that he has a job to do, and none of the others have a job.

Father Gabble 30:58

No. They're just enjoying themselves.

Bronwen 31:00

He does have the best hair though.

Father Gabble 31:02

He does have the best hair. There's no doubt he has the best hair. And when he this blue thing, and then when he's angry, it all goes red and flames across all of him.

Megan 31:13

Like the devil.

Bronwen 31:14

Yeah.

Father Gabble 31:14

Like the devil.

Megan 31:15

And I do agree with you that we see him as isolated as well. I thought the beginning bit where he arrives on Olympus and everyone's up there partying for the birth of Hercules. It reminded me of the beginning of Sleeping Beauty with Maleficent not being invited to the party. So she's been excluded as well. And I imagine we'll find that this is a fairly common trait of Disney villains that they have been excluded.

Father Gabble 31:44

Excluded. And it's a common trait of scientists, isn't it? We were never invited to the parties that all the art students were having. So we share that embittered exclusion from all the people having wild fun.

Bronwen 31:57

And actually, you make a really interesting comparison, it's not a very nice one, but in that paper, the reason it's been written is to understand the mentality of school shooters. It does make sense the idea that people aren't born school shooters. They go through experiences, and most of the time, if you go into the person's life, it's many, many multiple layered experiences that come together, but it all comes down to the sense of like not being wanted anywhere, whether it's at home or at school or amongst peers. So it's actually a really important thing to talk about.

Father Gabble 32:30

And it's probably a vicious cycle, isn't it? It's not one thing causing another. They feed on themselves as you get more antisocial.

Bronwen 32:36

Yeah.

Father Gabble 32:37

People don't want to be around.

Bronwen 32:38

People don't. School shooters don't just go have a bad experience and then go in and shoot. It becomes they have a bad experience, so they start rejecting their peers and going, oh, they suck. I don't want them anyway. And then they can this cycle continues, and they often have their own also complex mental health difficulties as well in terms of low mood and anxiety and that sort of thing.

Father Gabble 32:58

This is quite a dark podcast, isn't it?

Bronwen 33:00

It does get a little bit dark. That's the thing about Disney is it has light and dark.

Father Gabble 33:04

It does.

Megan 33:05

Yeah. Definitely.

Bringing it all together

Bronwen 33:06

Yes.

Megan 33:10

Is there anything else you like about Hades other than the fact that he's relatable? What what what else draws you to him?

Father Gabble 33:19

His hair.

Megan 33:19

Yeah. It's the hair, really.

Father Gabble 33:22

It is, yes.

Megan 33:23

Do you do you like the voice performance? That has quite often been praised.

Father Gabble 33:28

Yes, and I guess he has some good lines, doesn't he? And the villains often do.

Megan 33:34

And I think it's quite interesting the way they choose to portray him as well, and I think it's to do with James Woods's performance. He has this sort of like salesman patter, which is kind of quite an odd choice. But I think it works really well and it's very funny.

Father Gabble 33:48

Yes.

Bronwen 33:49

But also it's just made me think as well, I was thinking about some of his lines. Something I talked about on the podcast is Hades also doesn't really want to fit in. He says to Hercules when Hercules has agreed to give up his strength um in order to save Meg, he says, now you're just like everyone else, and isn't that just peachy?

Father Gabble 34:10

Ah.

Bronwen 34:11

So he he doesn't want to be like everybody else.

Megan 34:14

No.

Bronwen 34:14

But he also doesn't want to run the underworld.

Megan 34:17

No.

Bronwen 34:17

Which I think is fair.

Megan 34:21

His aspiration is to rule everything.

Father Gabble 34:22

That's a fair aspiration, I I think. But you can understand him not wanting to be like everybody else. If he if the everybody else or the sort of people have excluded him, why would he want to be like somebody who's excluded him? So he needs some good friends somewhere.

Megan 34:39

So in the Greek myth, he does end up having a wife.

Bronwen 34:42

Does he?

Megan 34:43

Persephone.

Father Gabble 34:44

Oh yes.

Megan 34:44

He does steal her.

Father Gabble 34:47

Yes, she's rather forced there against her will, isn't she?

Megan 34:50

And she has to stay there for six months of the year. So that's when it's winter.

Father Gabble 34:54

Ah.

Megan 34:54

Because she's like the goddess of flowers or something like that.

Father Gabble 34:58

Right.

Megan 34:58

And so when she comes back up to the surface, then we have spring.

Bronwen 35:01

Oh I see. Okay. Okay. Well, they I think Disney they've been discussing creating a villains land for some time, I think, at Walt Disney World.

Megan 35:12

Oh, yeah.

Bronwen 35:13

I think.

Megan 35:14

Yes, yeah.

Bronwen 35:15

Is that right?

Megan 35:15

Yes.

Bronwen 35:16

Um, if you could give Hades anything in the land, it can be a show, it can be a ride, it could be a parade. What would you like to give Hades in...

Father Gabble 35:27

I think he deserves a show. He's got the character for a show, really, I think, where he's the star. He's acknowledged for the great person that he is. And then he's free to sort of diss Hercules.

Megan 35:44

It's interesting that he doesn't get a villain song.

Bronwen 35:46

No.

Megan 35:47

Because lots of them do.

Father Gabble 35:48

Yeah, they do.

Megan 35:49

But he doesn't get one.

Father Gabble 35:50

No, he should have had a villain song. So we'll give him a show, and specifically, we will give him a song.

Bronwen 35:56

Okay, well, I think no one has discussed Hades in such academic depth.

Father Gabble 36:04

Try to understand Hades. Have sympathy. Empathy with Hades.

Megan 36:08

Well, thank you very much for joining us.

Father Gabble 36:10

You're very welcome.

Megan 36:12

I think what what is classically said on these sorts of things is, is there anything you'd like to tell the listeners about where they can find you?

Father Gabble 36:20

No.

Megan 36:21

No. Don't want to be found.

Father Gabble 36:22

They can't find me. I shall be down a cave somewhere for six months.

Megan 36:27

Yeah. Okay.

Father Gabble 36:28

I'll be one of the ones saying, Can I stay down a little bit longer, please, miss?

Megan 36:32

As long as there are no people down there. If you were down there with people,

Father Gabble 36:36

Down there with people, yeah, that could be difficult. Just a mouse, a nice, friendly mouse. Or a rat.

Megan 36:42

Shall we invite Daddy to join us on the way that we say goodbye on this podcast? Do you remember how we say goodbye on this podcast?

Father Gabble 36:50

Oh no, there's a test. No. No, I don't remember.

Megan 36:55

Okay, well, perhaps if we start off, you can join in. So to say goodbye, we always go...

All 37:05

Gabble gabble gabble gabble. 

Megan 37:05

Very good.

Bronwen 37:06

Perfect.

All 37:07

Bye.

Outro

Bronwen 37:12

This is not an official Disney podcast, and the views expressed are our own. Thanks for joining us on another stop on our walking tour through the Disney landscape. We look forward to seeing you next time. Until then, you can follow us @gabblesisters on Instagram. Be sure to subscribe and rate us wherever you listen to your podcasts, and please recommend us to all your Disney pals. Toodly pip.

Bronwen 37:36

Well good bye.

Father Gabble 37:41

Do you want us to go Bronwen?

Bronwen 37:44

No, I'm just trying to find a way...