Hercules

In this episode we discuss the 35th Disney animated feature: Hercules.

Follow us @gabblesisters on Instagram.

Email us at gabblesisterspodcast@gmail.com.

Warning: in this episode we touch on topics including murder, infanticide, sexual abuse, and incest.

Bibliography:

• Hercules (1997)
• Hercules musical (2025, Theatre Royal Drury Lane)
• Mythos: The Greek Myths Retold - Stephen Fry (2017)
• Heroes: The Greek Legends Retold - Stephen Fry (2018)
• The Greek Myths: The Complete and Definitive Edition - Robert Graves (2017)
• Drawn To Greatness: Disney's Animation Renaissance - Michael Lyons (2021)
• The Partial Historians podcast (2023 episode)
• Going the Distance: Themes of the Hero in Disney in Disney's Hercules - Burchfield (2013)
• National Autistic Society (2026)
• "Resilience in the face of neurodivergence: A scoping review of resilience and factors promoting positive outcomes" - Black et al., Clinical Psychology Review (2024)
• "The Neurodiversity Approach(es): What Are They and What Do They Mean for Researchers?" - Dwyer, Human Development (2022) 
• "Delaying Adoption Disclosure: A Survey of Late Discovery Adoptees" - Baden et al., Journal of Family Issues (2019)
• "Secrecy within adoptive families and its impact on adult adoptees" - Passmore et al., Family Relationships Quarterly (2007)

Transcript

Intro

Megan 0:00

I don't think Hercules appeared actually in this conference.

Bronwen 0:04

That's the gospel truth.

Megan 0:05

Yeah. See what you did there. I went the distance to Vienna.

Bronwen 0:13

I'm I'm out. I'm out.

Megan 0:16

We derailed.

Megan 0:19

Welcome to Gabble Sisters. Join us on our walking tour of every Disney animated feature, taking in the history, psychology, and music of a randomly selected film each episode. Think Goose. Forward, march.

Bronwen 0:39

Hello, Megan.

Megan 0:40

Hello, Bronwen.

Bronwen 0:42

How are you?

Megan 0:42

I'm frazzled.

Bronwen 0:44

You don't look frazzled.

Megan 0:46

Oh thanks. I tried to wear an appropriate top for today.

Bronwen 0:51

You have lightning bolts.

Megan 0:53

Yeah. So repping Zeus.

Bronwen 0:56

Yes, you are. Yes, you are.

Megan 0:57

Yeah. How are you?

Bronwen 0:58

I'm okay. I'm alright. I'm here.

Megan 1:01

We're here.

Bronwen 1:01

And that's the highlight of the week.

Megan 1:04

Yeah. Excited to talk about Hercules.

Bronwen 1:06

Yes. So before we get started, shall we do our Disney check-in?

Megan 1:11

Yes, let's. I believe you had exciting plans for our Disney check-in. Am I right?

Bronwen 1:21

Yes. Well, for the benefit of the audience, it was Megan's birthday. She has been patiently waiting for her present.

Megan 1:31

I'm so good.

Bronwen 1:32

For three weeks, because I said I wanted to give it to her on mic to get her live reaction. So, here you go. I'm giving Megan a really badly wrapped present.

Megan 1:45

It's not really badly wrapped.

Bronwen 1:50

ASMR.

Megan 1:54

That's what they do, isn't it?

Bronwen 1:56

I hate that so much.

Megan 2:02

I'm already liking the look of that. Disney cats and dogs. So it's a mug with, is it all the Disney cats?

Bronwen 2:10

It's a lot of Disney cats.

Megan 2:12

It is a lot isn't it?

Bronwen 2:13

There's actually more repetition on there than I realised, which made me a bit sad, but.

Megan 2:17

Oh, but it's beautiful!

Bronwen 2:19

And it's got Figaro.

Megan 2:21

It's got Figaro, that's the most important thing. It's got Lucifer, it's got Oliver, Duchess, Thomas O'Malley, Dinah. Yeah, it's an interesting selection of Disney cats. I love it.

Bronwen 2:34

And on the inside it says

Megan 2:36

I haven't even looked at that yet. Home is where my cat is! Yes! That's so true.

Bronwen 2:43

It's Disney, it's cats.

Megan 2:45

It's so beautiful. Thank you so much. There's another thing.

Bronwen 2:49

There's another thing.

Megan 3:00

Oh, this is so appropriate. So, okay. So this is the Disney pin for Hercules the Musical, which we saw on the West End, and I didn't buy it at the time, but now I have it! Yay!

Bronwen 3:18

Uh, to add to your Disney pin collection.

Megan 3:22

I love it so much.

Bronwen 3:23

You're welcome.

Megan 3:24

Well, I will have to put photos of both of these on the Gram.

Bronwen 3:28

Yes, absolutely.

Megan 3:29

Oh, they're so beautiful. Thank you so much. Those are great presents.

Bronwen 3:33

So that's my Disney updates.

Megan 3:35

Worth the wait. Did you have anything else that you've done this month?

Bronwen 3:38

We went to see

Megan 3:39

Hoppers.

Bronwen 3:40

Hoppers.

Megan 3:41

Yes, I haven't seen that yet. Did you want to talk about

Bronwen 3:44

We went to see it before the premiere, which we didn't realise. Like on all of the um posters and stuff, it said it was coming out on the 6th of March.

Megan 3:53

Yeah.

Bronwen 3:54

And then we booked tickets to see it on the 28th of February. And we were like, okay, we're just gonna do this. And it was everywhere. It was like, yeah, come see it on the 6th of March.

Megan 4:05

Yeah, because I remember you saying on my birthday that you'd been to see it, and I was like what? It's not out yet.

Bronwen 4:11

Yeah, it was good actually. I think in terms of Pixar, it's the best that they've done for a little while. I wasn't a massive fan of the animation style.

Megan 4:19

Okay.

Bronwen 4:20

And the main character kind of annoyed me a bit. But I quite liked it. That doesn't sound like I liked it very much. No, it was very enjoyable. Like the story was very good.

Megan 4:28

What I keep seeing is that it was really funny. Did you find it really funny?

Bronwen 4:32

Yes. I... the main thing that seems to have come out of it is the lizard.

Megan 4:36

Yes.

Bronwen 4:37

Lizard, lizard. That's not nearly as prominent in the film.

Megan 4:42

Oh. Interesting.

Bronwen 4:43

And the thing of him waving, like he just does that like in a corner. Like it's not nearly as big a deal as like you'd think from social media.

Megan 4:51

Oh, definitely. Yeah.

Our relationship with the film

Bronwen 4:53

So what comes next, Megan? What do we talk about next?

Megan 5:00

Next, I think we talk about our history with this film.

Bronwen 5:05

Yes.

Megan 5:05

So Bronwen.

Bronwen 5:06

Yes.

Megan 5:07

Do you remember seeing Hercules for the first time?

Bronwen 5:11

No.

Megan 5:11

No.

Bronwen 5:12

I don't think I do. This film came out, I think, when I was three, and I have no memory of seeing it for the first time. But I remember watching it as a young child and really enjoying it. I've always loved this film. I think I love it even more now. But no, I have no specific memories about it beyond... Actually, I don't even remember it. There's the picture of us meeting Hercules.

Megan 5:40

Yeah, we need to dig that out.

Bronwen 5:41

At what was then called MGM Studios, I think.

Megan 5:44

Oh, was it? Okay. Yeah, I don't remember that detail.

Bronwen 5:47

That might be wrong.

Megan 5:48

I came across my Hercules autograph from that in my autograph book. Um, yeah, I feel very much the same as far as I'm concerned, this film has always existed.

Bronwen 5:58

Yes.

Megan 5:59

I don't remember a time before Hercules. Um, and I think we owned it on VHS.

Bronwen 6:05

Yeah, I think so.

Megan 6:06

And I think it was in kind of regular rotation, wasn't it? That I think it was one we watched a lot.

Bronwen 6:11

Another thing I'll just say at this point, um, we'll get more into like the Greek stuff.

Megan 6:16

Oh, yes, we will.

Bronwen 6:17

Yes, we will. So I'm gonna leave all of that to you, but just as a memory, we... I actually don't know much about like Greek mythology at all.

Megan 6:25

You will by the end of today.

Bronwen 6:27

Okay. I look forward to the lecture.

Megan 6:29

Yes.

Bronwen 6:29

Um, and I remember we studied the Greek, like Ancient Greeks in, I think, Year 4. So I was about eight or nine.

Megan 6:38

Yeah.

Bronwen 6:39

And I remember we made papier mache vases, we went to the British Museum to look at the Elgin Marbles, hashtag give them back.

Megan 6:48

Yes.

Bronwen 6:49

Um we also watched a video about the story of Hercules. And I remember I think everyone was like, yeah, we're gonna watch Hercules. And the teacher was like, no, no, we're gonna watch about the Greek myth of Hercules. And I remember being very disappointed by how dissimilar it is from the actual Greek myth about Hercules. But we'll get into that, but yeah, this is my associated memory.

Megan 7:15

I'd be fascinated if you remember what it said in that film.

Bronwen 7:21

Yes.

Megan 7:22

Because there's a lot of stuff in the Hercules myth that's not very child-friendly.

Bronwen 7:27

Oh, really?

Megan 7:27

So much.

Bronwen 7:29

Oh, okay.

Megan 7:29

So it would be really interesting to see if like that came into what you were told.

Bronwen 7:33

Yes.

Megan 7:34

So how did you feel about coming back to this film for the podcast?

Bronwen 7:40

Oh, very happy. This was a very easy one to do. I didn't... I only watched it once a few weeks ago now because I know it so well. I didn't really feel I needed to watch it at all, but I watched it because I enjoy it. So when the the hat gave us this one, I was like, that's a good one.

Megan 7:55

Yeah.

Bronwen 7:56

Yes. What about you?

Megan 7:57

No, I felt very similarly. I have watched it twice um in the last month, but again, it just... it was all so familiar.

Bronwen 8:07

Yeah.

Megan 8:07

That I barely needed to the second time, but I did pick up on some little bits and pieces having done the research and then kind of paying very close attention. I put the subtitles on, which I don't normally do, and I was picking out like the individual gods and stuff like that. So that was interesting.

Bronwen 8:25

That's cool.

Megan 8:25

But yeah, no, I had a good time.

Bronwen 8:27

Nice, okay.

Synopsis

Bronwen 8:28

What's it time for now? Is it haiku time?

Megan 8:35

I think it is haiku time Bronwen.

Bronwen 8:38

Okay, so um I've done similar to last time with the haikus. I've written three, and it's your job to figure out who is saying this haiku.

Megan 8:48

Okay.

Bronwen 8:48

It's going to really test your intelligence.

Megan 8:51

Okay.

Bronwen 8:54

This is the first one. I have big muscles. Phil has taught me to use them. Meg is my best gal.

Megan 9:03

My best gal. Hmm. Who could this be? Who else has big muscles? Hmm. Did your husband James write this one?

Bronwen 9:15

Yeah, he did. Um well, he has offered to help to write the haikus. After the last episode, he said to me, Um, if you need any help with the haikus, just let me know, which I'm not sure if that's a compliment or not.

Megan 9:29

Yeah, so we may get some guest haikus.

Bronwen 9:31

We might get some guest haikus. That's his contribution to the pod. Okay.

Megan 9:35

Well, I'm gonna guess. I haven't actually.

Bronwen 9:36

Oh, you haven't guessed, yet.

Megan 9:37

I'm gonna guess that was Hercules.

Bronwen 9:39

That was Hercules.

Megan 9:40

Whoa.

Bronwen 9:41

Y es. Okay, next one. I have flaming hair. I just hate the Underworld. Meg's annoying.

Megan 9:53

I'm gonna take that personally. Um obviously I have an affinity with Meg sharing a name. I'm gonna go with that being Hades.

Bronwen 10:03

Nice, final one. I look like a vase. I am controlled by Hades. Men are annoying.

Megan 10:13

Ah well. That'll be our best gal.

Bronwen 10:17

That's our best gal, yes. 100% amazing.

Megan 10:21

Very good. Thank you.

History

Bronwen 10:22

So, Megan, tell us a bit about the history of this film. I mean, there's not much history here.

Megan 10:33

No, I was I was going to draw that distinction, obviously, between history and mythology.

Bronwen 10:39

Oh, yes.

Megan 10:41

Well, just to make the point that I'm

Bronwen 10:43

I mean, I was joking.

Megan 10:46

I thought you were making a very serious point. These were not real people.

Bronwen 10:51

I was like, there's so much here. There's a whole uh I mean, just out of pure coincidence, the books that we have chosen, or two of the books that we have chosen to put our microphone on are collected ancient Greek novels and the Odyssey.

Megan 11:06

Perfect.

Bronwen 11:07

What are the chances? Anyway.

Megan 11:09

That's brilliant.

Bronwen 11:09

Uh those are.

Megan 11:10

You should have given those to me for my research.

Bronwen 11:13

I should have.

Megan 11:14

It's okay. I found my own.

Bronwen 11:15

It's alright. Well, that's these are the kind of books you have when you live with James. Anyway, sorry. In all seriousness, tell us about the history and mythology of this film, Megan.

Megan 11:29

Yeah, so I'm basically just going to use this as an excuse to talk about Greek myths.

Bronwen 11:33

Great. Fantastic.

Megan 11:34

And yes, it is worth making the distinction between that and like actual ancient history. So these myths were propagated by the ancient Greeks, um, but we are not talking about historic figures here, so we don't need to necessarily be that concerned with accuracy. We're... it's kind of a similar situation to what we were talking about last time with Snow White, that the material being used for Snow White were these fairy tales that were quite fluid and there were lots of different iterations of them. The same is true of Greek myths. So that's just worth pointing out at the beginning. Um, I thought I'd mention what I'm not going to talk about, which is the history of the company at the time. So with Snow White, um, in our previous episode, we kind of set up a bit about what the Walt Disney Company was doing at the time. Um, I thought we wouldn't do that with Hercules, um, because it is that interesting 90s period of the Disney Renaissance, but I think there are better films to talk about that.

Bronwen 12:39

I agree, I agree.

Megan 12:40

Because this is a bit later on here in 1997 and past the peak as well.

Bronwen 12:46

Yes.

Megan 12:47

Um so I thought we won't really talk about that today. Um I think the 90s context is important to this film and what we see presented in it, um, but not so much what the company was doing.

Bronwen 13:02

That's fair.

Megan 13:03

So, I thought it was important to set up a bit of context first about what they were trying to achieve with this film. Um, which again, probably not accuracy. Again, uh I it's funny the number of similarities that came up between my thoughts on this and my thoughts on Snow White, and I wouldn't necessarily have paired those two.

Bronwen 13:27

It's been really interesting. I'll get to it when we talk more about the psychology, about some of the links between these films, and I would never have, if it wasn't for this podcast, have put these two films together to be like, and considering what we talked about last time, bringing it to this. Really interesting. So thank you, ran... thank you, Sorcerer's Hat. Thank you, Mickey.

Megan 13:50

It was meant to be. Useful comparison.

Bronwen 13:52

It's gonna be really interesting.

Megan 13:53

So what I was going to say about that here is that choosing Greek myths to animate is a very deliberate decision because it's such a rich and visual source material, like Snow White and the fairy tales. There was so much potential for them to bring in animation and beautiful colours and things like that. We've got the same with Greek myths. And it's worth saying that they did do some research about Greek mythology. They took a nice pre-production research trip to Greece and Turkey.

Bronwen 14:31

Amazing.

Megan 14:32

It's a nice life.

Bronwen 14:33

That's such a nice life.

Megan 14:34

Yeah.

Bronwen 14:34

You don't get that working for the NHS.

Megan 14:37

No. No. I have just been to Vienna for a conference, so...

Bronwen 14:42

It's a nice life.

Megan 14:43

I'm having a nice life.

Bronwen 14:45

The fanciest conference that ever conferenced.

Megan 14:50

It was and actually, oh my goodness. I... I can't believe I hadn't made this connection. But the theme of the conference was Greek mythology.

Bronwen 14:58

It was meant to be. It was meant to be.

Megan 15:01

That's really odd that I didn't make that connection. I mean, it was actually a radiology conference, but all of the visuals were to do with Greek myths, and they had a lot of like they they even had statues that they'd made for this conference, and the main one was Athena with her owl, but you could see through Athena's arm to see her bones because it's a radiology conference. So, yes, they did their research, they went to Greece and Turkey, and there was a consulting classicist for the film, and as he did end up defending the film afterwards to other classicists who were like, What are you talking about?

Bronwen 15:49

Oh, for goodness sake, why are they being snobby about it? This is a animation, a family animation film. Why does it need to be? Oh well, Odysseus wouldn't have done this or what so for that. Okay, fine.

Megan 16:03

Well, exactly. And it's again coming back to the fluidity of Greek myths, so he defended it by saying, there is no true or correct version of Greek myth. During antiquity, the myths were constantly changing. So I make no claim that my version is the only true or correct one. My only claim is that I have considered all the available variants and chosen those which seem to be the most enduring and coherent.

Bronwen 16:28

There you go.

Megan 16:29

So. They chose Greek myths as a broad inspiration, but the directors, uh Musker and Clements, um, were really inspired by classic Hollywood. And they wanted to make what they were calling an epic comedy, which was inspired by screwball comedies of the 30s and 40s. So they wanted a straight-laced hero and a sharp, sophisticated love interest. And I think we also see a lot of 90s influence on the story as well, as those kind of 40s influences, because I think you see a lot of celebrity culture coming across. I mean, there are some very explicit references to 90s celebrity culture.

Bronwen 17:13

And that was big in the 90s anyway. We see that in other Disney films that it was kind of cool at the time to make reference to things like that.

Megan 17:21

So yeah, that that's the kind of 90s context of it. And not only, not only kind of real-life celebrities are influencing this story, it's also like a superhero origin story, like Superman. Um, and, I mean, Musker and Clements directly referenced that by saying they were both fans of comic books and they wanted to do that sort of story.

Bronwen 17:47

It looks quite comic book. Now that you say that, actually, it has that sort of comic strip feel to it.

Megan 17:54

Yes, and I think part of that is that they got this, it was a British cartoonist that they got on board. Um, now this is not... I haven't written this down, so this is just from memory, but I think it was a guy called Gerald Scarfe. That's what they wanted to do. They wanted to do an epic comedy, some sort of Greek myth, um with these sort of Hollywood tropes um in it. And when they were first thinking about doing this, kind of in the early 90s, they considered both Hercules and the Odyssey. But in the end, the Odyssey was considered too sacred and serious, whereas Hercules they thought they could have a bit more fun with.

Bronwen 18:38

Yes.

Megan 18:39

And then a final bit of... I'm sort of just trying to set the context here before diving into everything that's wrong. But top level, I just thought I'd mention this film doesn't know if it's Greek or Roman.

Bronwen 18:58

No. I mean, the gospel music is a little bit out there.

Megan 19:02

Oh, that's true, yes.

Bronwen 19:03

But there's that, but yes, I agree, it's it's quite confused.

Megan 19:07

Yes, I mean, so yeah, there are influences from lots of time periods, but in particular, Hercules is the Roman name for the Greek hero Heracles.

Bronwen 19:21

I didn't know that.

Megan 19:23

Mmm. Mind-blowing.

Bronwen 19:26

Glass shatters sound. I I ... Heracles and Hercules.

Megan 19:33

Same dude. Yeah.

Bronwen 19:34

Okay.

Megan 19:34

So obviously, there's a lot of commonality between Greek and Roman myths because the Romans kind of absorbed Greek mythology into their own mythology and gave them all their own name s um so it's kind of understandable, but it is curious when basically everything else in this film is Greek, but they've chosen the Roman name for Hercules, and I don't actually know why.

Bronwen 19:58

HER-A-CLES!

Megan 20:01

Maybe it doesn't sound good.

Bronwen 20:02

And you get Herc.

Megan 20:03

Yes.

Bronwen 20:04

Which is a great sort of like man's man name.

Megan 20:08

That is true. That maybe, maybe that was it. Yeah.

Bronwen 20:11

Yeah.

Megan 20:11

Uh and two other minor Roman things. Now I'm just, I'm, I'm getting fussy here. The... the joke that is made where one of the little boys says, Someone call IX I I. That only works in Roman numerals. It doesn't work in Greek numerals. They had a different numeral, system.

Bronwen 20:29

You're ruining this film for me now.

Megan 20:32

I know right?

Bronwen 20:33

Let's speed this up. I can't I can't be handling this.

Megan 20:36

And who put the glad in gladiator?

Bronwen 20:38

Hercules.

Megan 20:40

But gladiators are a Roman concept, not a Greek one. So there we go. I've entirely torn this film apart just with those three points.

Bronwen 20:49

People are gonna stop listening to this podcast now because you are ruining a part of our childhood.

Megan 20:54

Yeah.

Bronwen 20:54

Megan.

Megan 20:55

Because I'm a pedant. Well, if you think that's ruining it, let's get on to the actual Greek myths.

Bronwen 21:02

Okay, here we go.

Megan 21:04

I thought we'd start at the top of the family tree. So, Zeus and Hera.

Bronwen 21:10

Yes.

Megan 21:11

Did you know that they are brother and sister?

Bronwen 21:15

Not this again. Not more weird stuff for me to cope with.

Megan 21:23

What other weird stuff was there?

Bronwen 21:25

Snow White and the fact that she was seven.

Megan 21:29

There's so much more here.

Bronwen 21:32

Okay, fine. I suppose they're not human, and so the genetic component isn't as important.

Megan 21:39

This is the thing. So the Greek gods, they all come from a common ancestor. You've got so few of them at the beginning. In fact, you start with the Titans, we'll get back to the Titans, but the Titans came before the Olympian gods, and they're their ancestors.

Bronwen 21:56

Okay.

Megan 21:57

But yes, Zeus and Hera are brother and sister, they were both children of Kronos, who was a Titan. And Hades is another brother in that family.

Bronwen 22:11

Okay.

Megan 22:11

Okay, so Zeus, Hera, Hades, all siblings. Um, in fact, so their dad, Kronos, nice guy. Um, when Hera was born, uh, he ate her.

Bronwen 22:26

As you do.

Megan 22:28

Yeah. And then when Hades was born, uh, Kronos ate him as well.

Bronwen 22:33

How are they still alive if he ate them?

Megan 22:35

Well, so there were, I think there were five siblings that as soon as they were born, their dad ate them, Kronos. Um, and then it was Zeus when he came along, he released his brothers and sisters from Kronos. So, probably an appropriate point to talk a little bit about Hades.

Bronwen 22:52

Yeah.

Megan 22:53

So he was God of the underworld.

Bronwen 22:56

He ran the underworld.

Megan 23:00

Exactly. Um, but what we see in this film is quite a Christian idea of the devil.

Bronwen 23:11

Yes.

Megan 23:12

With his flaming hair, with the fact that he makes deals. Uh, at one point he even references having like brimstone in his ear, so it's just the idea of hell.

Bronwen 23:22

Yeah.

Megan 23:22

Um, and at one point Meg says, speak of the devil when he appears. So they're they're very obviously playing on this idea of the devil, but that's not who he was to the Greeks. He was just an important god, like all the other gods, in charge of an important world, which was the other world. So, yes, that's Hades. Okay, so let's get on to Hercules, or perhaps in this context, I will refer to him as Heracles, so we can draw that distinction. So Heracles' parentage - we should talk about.

Bronwen 23:56

I'm worried.

Megan 23:57

Because yeah, I think you probably should be - it's not great. Uh Zeus is Heracles' dad.

Bronwen 24:05

Okay.

Megan 24:06

Hera is not his mum.

Bronwen 24:08

Ugh. The things men will do instead of going to therapy.

Megan 24:12

Well, indeed. So his mum is Alcmene. Now, if... I don't know if you picked up on the name as in the film.

Bronwen 24:23

No.

Megan 24:24

But the parents, the human parents who look after him are called Alcmene and Amphitryon.

Bronwen 24:31

Right, yes.

Megan 24:32

So Alcmene was actually Heracles' mum. And what happened

Bronwen 24:37

Is she human?

Megan 24:38

Yes.

Bronwen 24:38

Okay.

Megan 24:40

What happened was that Amphitryon had gone off to war.

Bronwen 24:44

Oh.

Megan 24:45

Zeus.

Bronwen 24:46

The classic.

Megan 24:47

Yeah, this is quite classic for Zeus. Zeus likes the look of Alcmene. Um Zeus was quite the womaniser. Zeus disguises himself as Amphytrion and pretends to return home. Yeah, and then sleeps with Alcmene. And that's how Heracles is conceived.

Bronwen 25:11

That's gonna be awkward when he comes back from war.

Megan 25:13

Yeah, well, he comes back from war the next day, and in fact there's another night of passion, and another child is conceived. So in fact, Heracles, and this happens all the time in Greek myth, um, that that you'll have twins where one was conceived by one father and one was conceived by another. So, yeah, Heracles had a twin. So, yes, Hera is not the mother of Hercules, and in fact, she is the villain of the whole Heracles story, because as ever, she is absolutely infuriated by Zeus's infidelity. Um, and so she very much sets her face against Heracles. So Hera is the villain of Heracles' story, not Hades.

Bronwen 26:01

I see.

Megan 26:02

Um, so in fact, she sends two snakes to kill the baby Heracles, which is probably where we get the two snakes from in the Hercules film. There's this other story, which is not relevant, but I feel needs to be known. Um, there's a bit where for different reasons according to different versions of the story, Hera ends up breastfeeding the baby Heracles, and uh he sucks so hard that milk sprays across the cosmos.

Bronwen 26:39

Across the cosmos.

Megan 26:40

That is how we get the Milky Way.

Bronwen 26:44

Okay.

Megan 26:45

So next time you see the Milky Way in the sky, you'll know why.

Bronwen 26:49

I will think about that. I'll be thinking about that. That's I mean that's that that's a really strong suckle.

Megan 26:57

Yeah. Strong boy.

Bronwen 26:59

So was he really strong then from a baby?

Megan 27:03

So he was a half god.

Bronwen 27:05

Yeah.

Megan 27:06

He's um he's mortal. Strength isn't the major thing, actually. So he's he's kind of trained to be a hero, and his particular thing was running really fast. Actually, the whole bodybuilder physique wouldn't have been possible or even desirable in the ancient world.

Bronwen 27:29

Oh, okay. Which is interesting when we think about like the Olympics being a sort of Greek phenomenon, if I'm right.

Megan 27:36

Yes, yes.

Bronwen 27:37

So they were really into sport, but not from a... not like big muscles.

Megan 27:42

No, you're right, they were into sport. Yeah, there there is a myth that Heracles started off the Olympic Games in honour of Zeus.

Bronwen 27:50

That's cool.

Megan 27:51

But yeah, not big into their bodybuilding. No. Whereas I, I feel like bodybuilding, it does feel quite a 90s phenomenon.

Bronwen 27:59

Yes, I think it was particularly big then, wasn't it? Like people... it's very interesting, isn't it, how perceived body shape in terms of like attractive or changes. And we see this in both men and women. So, you know, the 90s was a time when women shrank, we're seeing that now. The smaller the better.

Megan 28:22

Yeah.

Bronwen 28:23

And men, there's been this how big they are and how they're big. So, like that, then yeah, I think it really was like this sort of steroid looking of like massive. Whereas I think we're not as much into that now. I don't think, that's changed.

Megan 28:39

And Hercules in this film, he is that big

Bronwen 28:42

That very classic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan 28:45

Shall we come on to talk about Megara?

Bronwen 28:48

Yes, we can talk about Megara.

Megan 28:50

So Megara was daughter of the king of Thebes.

Bronwen 28:54

Okay.

Megan 28:54

So Thebes does feature strongly in the Heracles story. Real place,

Bronwen 28:58

The Big Olive

Megan 28:59

The Big Oolive, indeed. Um, and so she and Heracles get married, and they have well, different numbers of children depending on which version of the story you look at. One of Hera's punishments for Heracles for being conceived by Zeus was that she deludes him into thinking that Megara and their children are monsters.

Bronwen 29:29

Okay.

Megan 29:32

And so he kills them.

Bronwen 29:32

Oh that's not nice.

Megan 29:34

No, it's not good. And this is why he ends up doing the 12 Labours of Heracles, which you will have heard of.

Bronwen 29:43

I thought there were seven.

Megan 29:44

Oh!

Bronwen 29:45

For some reason in my head there were seven labours.

Megan 29:48

Oh,

Bronwen 29:48

I thought there were seven. Okay, there were twelve.

Megan 29:50

Yeah.

Bronwen 29:51

That's that's the only thing I remember from the video. Okay, so there were twelve.

Megan 29:58

I think it was supposed to be ten to begin with, and then two got added added on at the end.

Bronwen 30:03

Classic.

Megan 30:04

Um, and so we do see references to these Labours in the Hercules film, because the Hydra is one of the Labours.

Bronwen 30:13

Yeah.

Megan 30:14

Um, so is the lion.

Bronwen 30:17

Yeah.

Megan 30:18

Um, so we see quite a lot of it in the Zero to Hero sequence. Yes. Um, though you've also got some extras in there as well, because you've got the Minotaur, that's got nothing to do with Heracles, and you've got a Gorgon, and that's got nothing to do with Heracles.

Bronwen 30:33

You're just ruining it, Megan. Sorry, that was mean. You pedant.

Megan 30:39

I am a pedant. Um, it's fun. Um, I I think the thing one of the things that I picked up on just watching it last night was um Phil mentions a couple of the Labours um when Hercules is having his not his portrait, his vase

Bronwen 30:59

Where it's Scar.

Megan 31:00

Yes, yeah, exactly. And Phil is talking about what they've got scheduled for the afternoon, and it's references to other Labours.

Bronwen 31:11

That's cool.

Megan 31:11

Um so there's this one where he has to like clear out the stables of these massive horses, and so it's it's a whole load of horse poo that he has to clear. And Phil says a thing about, oh, you need to speak to this guy about his stables, don't wear your new sandals. So it's a reference to that. Yeah, yeah. Um and the final Labour is capturing Cerberus, the three-headed dog. So we do see Hercules do that as well when he goes down to hell. Not hell, when he goes down to the Underworld, see, um, to save Meg, he arrives on Cerberus.

Megan 31:48

Heracles, um, he had this destiny to save the gods on Olympus from the Giants.

Bronwen 31:57

Okay.

Megan 31:58

Now, Hercules, the film, seems to conflate the idea of Titans and Giants. They are not the same thing in Greek mythology. As we've covered, the Titans were the forebears of the Olympian gods, and the Giants were born from the blood of the castrated Uranus. His blood fell to the ground. The giants were born out of it.

Bronwen 32:28

Well now, that's just silly. That's just silly. Come on.

Megan 32:32

So, yes, Titans and Giants are different things.

Bronwen 32:34

Okay.

Megan 32:35

There are two major wars in Greek mythology that are combined in the Hercules film. So you've got the Titanomachy, which is the war between the Olympian gods and the Titans, and you've got the Gigantomachy, uh, which is the war between the gods and the giants, and that was the one that Heracles took a part in. And Hades had nothing to do with conspiring with any Titans or Giants. Um, in both wars, he fought on the side of the gods.

Bronwen 33:06

Did he have a Pegasus?

Megan 33:08

He did not have a Pegasus. Pegasus has got nothing to do with Heracles. There was a Pegasus though. There was a Pegasus. Um, Pegasus was born from the throat of a decapitated Medusa.

Bronwen 33:24

That did not happen. That's fake news.

Megan 33:27

Pegasus is associated with a different Greek hero called Bellerophon. While we're on that sort of point, Philoctetes did exist. He was a friend of Heracles rather than a trainer or anything, and he was just a man. He wasn't a satyr. Okay, you'll be pleased to know we're coming to the end of this.

Bronwen 33:46

Let's do this.

Megan 33:47

Coming to the end of the inaccuracies. Um, so let's come to the end of the story of Heracles, where Nessus the Centaur is very significant. So in Hercules, you've got the character of Nessus the Centaur, he's the one that's captured Meg at the beginning.

Bronwen 34:04

Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah, yeah.

Megan 34:06

So he's actually... he is significant in the Heracles story. So this is later on when Heracles he's done, he's he's killed his wife and children, he's done his twelve Labours in penance, he's also helped save the Olympian gods in the war against the Giants, um, and he's married a new wife called um Deaineira. What happens is that Nessus the Centaur offers to carry Deaineira over a river, and uh then he tries to violate her. So in response, Heracles shoots him with an arrow, and Heracles has these arrows that are dipped in hydra poison. And so Nessus is lying there dying, and as he tells Deaineira to use his blood, which has been poisoned by the Hydra poison, um, but Deaineira hasn't put that together. Um, she... he tells Deaineira to use his, the centaur's blood, to anoint Heracles' shirt, if he if he's ever been unfaithful. But if if you dip... what he tells Deaineira is if you dip the shirt in my centaur blood, get Heracles to wear it, he'll stop being unfaithful. And so Heracles, he kind of takes after his dad in this way, he's quite often unfaithful, and so next time he brings a mistress home, Deaineira thinks, right, it's time to give him this shirt, and uh so she does, and uh it corrodes his flesh and he dies. And well, and uh in response, she kills herself.

Bronwen 35:50

Thinking back to what you said about the classicists being really annoyed about the amount of changes, and you think yes, yeah, I think they didn't need to make a lot of changes.

Megan 36:00

Yeah

Bronwen 36:01

None of this is child friendly.

Megan 36:02

Yeah, can you imagine if this was in a Disney film?

Bronwen 36:06

Right, okay.

Megan 36:07

So to finish off, Zeus raises Heracles' soul to Olympus.

Bronwen 36:11

Okay, wahey!

Megan 36:14

So that that's... uh and he's borne up on a cloud, so that is what happens at the end of Hercules. And, nice end of the story, Hera adopts him.

Bronwen 36:24

She she kind of finally

Megan 36:26

Yeah, after all that

Bronwen 36:27

After all that time decided that you know what, it's okay.

Megan 36:31

And then Zeus raises him up to be a constellation, so that is from the Greek myth.

Bronwen 36:36

Nice. That's Phil's boy.

Megan 36:37

Exactly.

Bronwen 36:38

That's Phil's boy

Megan 36:39

Sort of.

Bronwen 36:40

Sort of.

Megan 36:41

So yes, there you are. Those are all the many changes. The um there are like the occasional things that they get right. Um the Fates they did pretty well.

Bronwen 36:50

I love the Fates.

Megan 36:52

Yeah, two more things to say about um history in this film. So I just thought I'd talk a little bit about the message of this film compared to the original Greek myth. So the opening question of Hercules is what is the measure of a true hero?

Bronwen 37:09

Yes.

Megan 37:10

And the answer at the end is a true hero isn't measured by the size of his strength, but by the strength of his heart.

Bronwen 37:18

Mm-hmm.

Megan 37:19

This is obviously quite a 90s message.

Bronwen 37:22

Very 90s, very classic Disney Renaissance.

Megan 37:25

Yes.

Bronwen 37:26

Very classic, yes.

Megan 37:27

Not very classic myth.

Bronwen 37:30

No, no. I mean, do the classic myths do they have messages?

Megan 37:35

Well, so they definitely had ideas of heroism.

Bronwen 37:39

Right, yeah.

Megan 37:40

Um, so to be a hero in Greek myth is to be famous and spectacular and blessed by the gods.

Bronwen 37:48

Yeah.

Megan 37:49

Um, it's not really associated with any kind of morality. And this idea of a hero versus what it means to be a true hero is not a concept that they would have recognised. I came across this fantastic Master's thesis about this called Going the Distance: Themes of the Hero in Disney's Hercules. Uh, so this was by Amy Elizabeth Burchfield to credit her.

Bronwen 38:15

Amy Elizabeth Burchfield, can I just say you've got your life completely right?

Megan 38:20

Yes.

Bronwen 38:20

That you're doing your Master's thesis on Hercules. You have made every choice in your life right.

Megan 38:27

Yes. Um, and the point, uh, she makes many good points, uh, but one thing that she talks about is how the Heracles myth has sought to define the true nature of heroism for the societies in which that myth is told. So the ancient Greek Heracles, for example, portrays heroism as clever but pious navigations through the vacillations of the fate and caprice of the gods. Whereas the Romans, when they took on Hercules, they adapted the same story, but they portray the heroism of Hercules as self-determined destiny that's not influenced by the divine. So the Greek and Roman myths have different ideas of heroism. And then she makes the point that Disney isn't interested in complete fidelity to the Greek myth. We can definitely see that. Uh, and it makes that immediately clear, you know that going into the film, that you've got um what's his name, Charlton Heston doing the voiceover at the beginning, and then you've got the muses interrupting and saying, Lighten up, dude. So they make it clear from the outset like this is not this is not your grandfather's Greek myth. She says, the true power of any myth is in its power to present truth to its audience through adaptation, and so it ought to and does adapt and change as the truth changes.

Bronwen 39:53

Yes.

Megan 39:54

That's kind of an interesting idea, isn't it? Truth changing for different societies.

Bronwen 39:58

Absolutely.

Megan 39:59

Ultimately, the myth of Heracles is too dynamic to have had a fixed canon to offend. It spread in various forms to numerous cultures, both modern and ancient. And what the film does is reject the ancient idea of heroism in favour of a modern idea of heroism. So you have this, he tries to be a hero, he's made into an action figure, and the film says, no, that's not what we think heroes are anymore. And so she concludes by saying, Hercules should be given another chance, not as a rehashing of the classical myth, but as a story that helps us define the hero in our own culture by juxtaposing it with the hero of old.

Megan 40:37

I've got one more point to make. This was inspired by a conversation that I had at my book group, which made me have some interesting thoughts about this film. So we read a retelling of a Greek myth, which was called Circe. And something that came out of that conversation was that the other ladies in my book group are a generation older than me. And for their generation, it was people who were privately educated who had familiarity with Greek myths.

Bronwen 41:11

Right, yes.

Megan 41:12

Whereas those who went to state schools, they didn't know anything about Greek myths. And I thought, huh, I think that's different for our generation. I wondered if this film in 1997 went some way to making Greek myths more accessible to the masses, not necessarily accurately, but sort of inspiring an interest at least. I think that's true of me.

Bronwen 41:41

Yeah.

Megan 41:41

I don't know if you think it's true of you.

Bronwen 41:43

Yeah, definitely, definitely. I I think I was always disappointed when the the the myth didn't live up to the the film.

Megan 41:52

So you're very disappointed today.

Bronwen 41:57

But no, absolutely. I think I mean, like I say, the reason, for example, when we were in when I was in Year 4 studying the Greek myths that I was at all interested was because of this film. Um because I was like, oh, it's gonna be like the the film, and yeah, it's not, but like it sparks an interest, definitely.

Megan 42:16

Yes. I, I looked this up actually because I was interested to know, it's been... Greek mythology has been on the National Ccurriculum in the UK since 1991. That's

Bronwen 42:25

Okay.

Megan 42:25

That's when the National Ccurriculum came in. So it... for our generation, we were always going to be taught about Greek myths, but I suspect we were all probably a lot more interested in it because there was a Disney film.

Bronwen 42:37

Yes, yeah, definitely.

Megan 42:38

Um, and this is... I think it's following on from a trend as um there was something in my book group, quite a few people mentioned having seen the film Jason and the Argonauts, and that's what they knew about Greek myth. So that this idea of democratising Greek myths has been happening for a while. And actually, Musker and Clements did say that they wanted an accessible hero. Um, and I think we'll come on to talk about the music later on, but I think the music helps make it that much more accessible as well.

Bronwen 43:09

I agree.

Psychology

Bronwen 43:10 Bronwen 43:10

Okay, so

Megan 43:16

So Bronwen, talk to me about the psychology in Hercules.

Bronwen 43:22

Okay, so I'm gonna touch on two subjects, two quite different subjects, a bit like last time. Actually, very similar to last time because we're gonna start with neurodiversity.

Megan 43:32

Excellent.

Bronwen 43:33

Like we did last time. Because I think there's an awful lot of discussion around neurodiversity in this film, and then I'm gonna go on, I'm gonna talk about late discovery adoption.

Megan 43:44

Oh, yes, I did think that would be an interesting thing to discuss. Yes.

Bronwen 43:49

So, yeah, that's what I'll come to. But I want to start with neurodiversity because I think this is the reason I love this film is because of how well I think this topic comes in. So we talked a bit about neurodiversity in our last podcast when we were talking about uh Dopey in Snow White.

Megan 44:06

Yep.

Bronwen 44:06

But I spoke about it very much within a sp... the specific frame of autism, as I say. I don't know if Dopey has autism or not, but he shares qualities. And I'm gonna make the same argument here. I can't diagnose Hercules with anything, but he certainly for me represents an awful lot of the challenges that neurodiverse people have.

Bronwen 44:26

So I'm gonna start by actually answering the question: what is neurodiversity? This is a term that was first used in the 1990s to describe a new scientific paradigm, explaining how people experience the world. So I'm gonna go back to my trusty source, the National Autistic Society, because their work is very good and their website really is very good. So the way they describe neurodiversity is as a way of saying that human brains are different to each other. Because we all have different brains, we all experience and react to things differently to each other. It's important to say there is no single definition of neurodiversity, but the neuro is referring to the nervous system, i.e., the brain, the spinal cord, and nerves, the system that sends messages from our brain to the rest of our body and back again. And diversity refers to variations or differences within a group. So whilst we all experience the world differently, some groups have significant shared differences to the typical experience and have different reactions to most people. Does that make sense?

Megan 45:38

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Bronwen 45:39

Cool. So in the United Kingdom, approximately one in seven people have some kind of neurodivergence, and that ranges. For example, about 1% of people are autistic, and about 10% of people experience dyslexia, which is another form of neurodivergence. So just to make this clear, examples of neurodiversity include autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyscalchia, dyspraxia, Tourette's syndrome, which has been a lot in the news recently, and epilepsy as well comes into that. And it's important, I want to say, just to get on my soapbox for a minute, these are differences in the human experience, not disorders, in a society that is able to accept difference and is accessible for everyone. Unlike the ancient world, which is what we are presented with.

Bronwen 46:37

So I've got this theory that when Hercules, if we take out for the sec... for a second that this is based on a myth, kind of think about it more from: you've come at it from the ancient historical perspective, I'm gonna come at it from like the current psychological perspective. I see turning mortal as turning neurotypical, that is someone who is not neurodiverse, because in the ancient world, most people or in myths, most people are human, they aren't gods, or the norm is to be human, right? So I'm not saying anyone in this film can be diagnosed with any form of neurodiversity, but with that in mind, to be immortal, powerful, godlike is to be neurodiverse. I believe it

Megan 47:22

Superpower!

Bronwen 47:22

Yeah, it's a super... exactly, exactly. The way I see this film is Hercules is constantly being asked to fit into the ancient Greek world. He's been asked to change who he is, he's rejected by others, not not his immediate family. You know, things like perhaps we should call him Jerkules. That's another reason they called him Hercules.

Megan 47:43

To make that joke work!

Bronwen 47:44

Jerkules!

Megan 47:45

Yes, because what could you do with Heracles? I mean,

Bronwen 47:48

Yeah.

Megan 47:49

Just sounds good.

Bronwen 47:49

Yeah. So these are just phrases that they say to him, sort of like in the first ten minutes of him being like a teenager. You know, perhaps we should call him Jerkules, he's too dangerous to be around normal people, he's a freak, he can't control his strength. He is too strong for the mortal world. And I think the argument that the film comes to is his skill set is valuable, but it's different. And in terms of the human condition, we are conditioned to be worried and concerned about things that are different. We don't like difference. The bit where I get really emotional is where Hercules sort of reflects on what this is like for him, and he says, I try to fit in, I really do, I just can't. Sometimes I feel like I really don't belong here, like I'm supposed to be someplace else. And I really think that is so often the experience of neuro spicy, as I like to call neurospicy people, is this world is not created for them. Our society, uh certainly in the West at least, is very neurotypical in its outlook, and there's nothing wrong with that, but the problem with it is it's so unaccepting of other ways of experiencing the world. And I think we see this quite often, I think. He has to travel far for answers, and again, I think that that relates a lot to the experience of neurodiverse people who have to work incredibly hard to get answers, to get assessments, to receive a formal diagnosis.

Megan 49:20

Yeah, long waiting lists.

Bronwen 49:21

Long waiting lists, having to try and get reasonable adjustments at work or whatever at university, wherever, extremely difficult sometimes.

Bronwen 49:30

So now we're gonna talk about Phil.

Megan 49:33

Oh, Phil, OK.

Bronwen 49:34

I don't particularly like Phil.

Megan 49:36

No, me neither.

Bronwen 49:37

I've gotta fur wedgie.

Megan 49:39

Oh man, that's such a bad line. And he's a lech, but we'll come back to that.

Bronwen 49:45

He is a lech, yes. He is able to recognise Hercules' skills can be refined and used for good, even if he has his own reasons for wanting to do that, and he doesn't really want to do it at the beginning because he's just fed up. He's burnt out, he's experiencing burnout, like poor man or poor goat, whatever he is. So in One Last Hope, he says things like, like painting a masterpiece, it's a work of heart, it takes more than sinew, it depends on what's in you, you have to continue to grow, and those again are really affirming things to say to somebody, which I really like.

Megan 50:18

And very modern.

Bronwen 50:19

And very modern too.

Megan 50:20

Not the Greek idea of heroism.

Bronwen 50:22

Yeah, it's very... we are... I'm straying very far from the myth here, and I should say I don't expect a myth to be able to hold a concept of neurodiversity because we didn't have that until the 1990s. So why would an ancient Greek myth have it? But I think it's really, and this is what I liked about what they did with it. It's like you were saying in that master's thesis about finding truth in these stories in different ways.

Megan 50:43

Truth changes.

Bronwen 50:44

Truth changes, and we've found a new truth here. Hercules is finally accepted by the populace once his skills are useful to them, once he starts saving them from all the beasts, which is quite sad for me that he's not accepted on his own terms. So, again, the National Autistic Society talks about what the benefits are of identifying as neurodiverse, and this includes having a positive sense of identity, having a validation of experiences through being understood by others and having a way to connect with other neurodivergent people and a sense of community. So the acceptance from others is so important for the mental well-being of neurodiverse people, but it's also important that we don't just do it based on whether they're useful to us. Meg is interesting when talking, when she's talking to Hercules about his differences, he says to her, When I was younger, I would have done anything to be like everyone else, and she doesn't really understand that, which suggests that she's sort of representing a neurotypical response here. Like, why would you want to be like everyone else when you're so different, you'd do anything just to just to fit in. And then actually, Hades talks about this as well, but he gets it because he says, Now you know what it feels like to be like everyone else, isn't it just peachy?

Megan 52:03

Yes.

Bronwen 52:04

So yeah, he gets that no, being like everyone else, being neurotypical is not as good as if we look at someone's life in the complete round, that we need all those different experiences, and yeah, it's our differences that make that bring us to life, and that's who we are.

Megan 52:23

Hades is very accepting of his own differences,

Bronwen 52:25

Yes, yes, he's very accepting,

Megan 52:27

he's very self-assured.

Bronwen 52:29

I love his self-assurance. I wish I had his confidence. Um, so yeah, this film is about acceptance of neurodiversity, and if we're looking for to frame the the message of this film, like you just said, um, within a neurodiverse frame, it's home is the people that accept us for who we are, regardless of how useful we are to them. And Hercules saying, I think I finally found where I belong. That that that always gives me feels. Always gives me feels.

Megan 53:00

Does it complicate the ending in that case? Because he gets taken up to Olympus, and in contrast to the original Greek myth,

Bronwen 53:10

Yeah

Megan 53:11

he chooses to become mortal.

Bronwen 53:14

Yeah.

Megan 53:15

And so perhaps this is taking the analogy too far, but um, if if we're equating mortality with neurotypicalness.

Bronwen 53:27

Yeah, neurotypicality.

Megan 53:28

Neurotypicality, that's a good word. Trips off the tongue, um, then at the end has he chosen neurotypicality?

Bronwen 53:36

Um no, it's a very good point, and perhaps this is where my analogy falls down, because yeah, he he what he wants is he wants to live a human life with with Meg. That's what he chooses. So I think it's nice that he gets to have what he chooses, and that's what is accepted as his choice. And perhaps what also has happened over the course of the film is that the mortal world has become accepting of him and his difference, and can now live with his difference and accept it. So perhaps at the beginning, the mortal world is like a quote unquote bad neurotypicality where it's sort of like no, this is you know, neurotypicality is always going to be the norm. It's always going to be ... but it's about the difference between a bad neurotypical world that will not accept difference, and at the end where we seem to have a world which is good, compassionate neurotypicality, where it's like that there is a norm, but we are incredibly accepting and loving and wanting different experiences, and to bring all of those in, if that makes sense.

Megan 54:37

Yeah.

Bronwen 54:37

Does that sort of answer the question?

Megan 54:39

I think so. And I was I was just thinking as well that perhaps being up on Olympus with the other, let's say, neurodiverse people. Um perhaps that's sort of the safe option that you can be different amongst different people, but he's chosen something that is actually slightly more challenging by being with Meg, um, who hasn't earlier in the film understood his differences, but she still loves him and he loves her. So it's not the safe choice, but maybe the right choice for him because that's where he now feels at home.

Bronwen 55:18

Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Bronwen 55:21

So I'm just gonna... I've got a couple more papers to talk about. So this is uh by Black et al. A paper called Resilience in the Face of Neurodivergence. So at a population level, evidence suggests that neurodivergent individuals face poorer outcomes compared to neurotypical individuals across a range of domains, such as lower school participation and educational attainment, greater levels of unemployment and poor and physical mental health. A range of adversities experienced by neurodivergent individuals increases the likelihood of these poor outcomes. For example, neurodivergent individuals are more likely to have a greater incidence of adverse childhood experiences. We spoke about those in our last episode.

Megan 56:03

Yeah.

Bronwen 56:03

And peer rejection and victimization. I spoke a bit about that in terms of Dopey, and I think he's experiencing quite a lot of these poorer outcomes. Um, it should be noted that desired outcomes in these areas may not be the same for neurotypical people and neurodiverse people. Everyone wants different... the concept of a good outcome is different for everybody based on what the goals are for their life. This paper identified the importance of support systems such as family and friends, community participation, and acceptance and recognition of individual capabilities to support a neurodivergent person's resilience. That is the ability to bounce back from adversity. I have quite a lot of issues with the concept of resilience. A society that over-emphasises the importance the importance of resilience, which is that ability to bounce back, runs in danger of actually asking itself the question are we putting people in situations that they don't shouldn't have to be resilient from? You know, people who are in war-torn countries, oh, we should just make them more resilient. Well, how about we stop going to war? For example, that's like a really a bit of an obvious or silly example.

Megan 57:14

A lower level example, I'm probably not alone in having had resilience training in the workplace, and you do kind of feel like, oh, maybe you could just make this a mentally better place to work.

Bronwen 57:27

Precisely, exactly, exactly. Um, yeah, it should not always be on the individual to be resilient, is I suppose what I'm trying to say.

Megan 57:34

Yes.

Bronwen 57:34

Um, and I think what is good about this film, if we compare it to Snow White in the presentation of neurodiversity in a way that isn't very good, doesn't have the the concepts fully formed, which makes sense because it came so much earlier and the concept of neurodiversity was just simply not there. But I think what this film shows, I think it's evidence of, and I I don't want to pin this to Disney, but just generally our understanding of difference is shown to be so much better and much more accepting. We're a much more positively positive affirming society, even in the 90s, which is a long time ago now.

Megan 58:11

Yeah.

Bronwen 58:11

I'd like to think we've come even further since then. I think if Hercules was to be made again today, we'd see even more of an understanding of this concept, I think.

Megan 58:22

Yes.

Bronwen 58:23

So finally, we will... uh one final paper on neurodiversity. So Dwyer in 2022 wrote a paper called The Neurodiversity Approaches, what are they and what do they mean for researchers for the Journal of Human Development, uh, where they said that neurodivergence is not inherently negative and may instead be reflective of natural human variation. Disability arises from a poor fit between the individual and their environment, which is often more suited and designed to the dominant neurotype from challenges that lie solely within an individual. I think what this is basically saying is that within the huge variation in humans, we're going to see lots of different variation in loads of different ways, in terms of someone someone's physical health, their mental health, their cognitive abilities, and all of those things are valuable and necessary. And the issue that we often experience is people can be disabled by the society that they're in by a lack of ramps or a lack of awareness of things like well, if you're working with someone who's autistic and who would prefer softer light, for example, or less noise, things like that, really simple things that we can make a difference for. And I don't think that this film quite goes that far about... not just saying, okay, how can we help you fit into our world, Hercules? But okay, how can we make this world better for you in terms of you're really strong, so lots of fragile things might be difficult for you. So, how can we help with that? There's not much of that, but again,

Megan 1:00:03

He has to transform in order to fit the society.

Bronwen 1:00:09

Yes. So if they do make a version, a live-action version of Hercules, which I sincerely hope that they don't do, I ... what I would really like if they if they listen to this podcast and they decide to buy into my idea that Hercules is a neurodivergent icon, which I believe he is, that they don't just think about helping him fit into the neurotypical ancient Greek world, but think about adding into the film ways that the rest of the world can adapt to to be accessible to him, as opposed to him just being accessible to their world, if that makes sense.

Megan 1:00:46

Definitely.

Bronwen 1:00:47

That would be a really modern 21st century way of thinking about this story. Okay, so that's everything I have to say on neurodiversity and this film.

Megan 1:00:58

Nice, yeah, very interesting. It makes a lot of sense.

Bronwen 1:01:00

Thank you, thank you very much. Um so I'm gonna talk about adoption now. Um the first thing I want to say is I love that the two films that we've watched, for better or for worse, Disney is recognising that parenting really does go beyond biological ties, which is really important and worthy. Um even if in last time it was the evil stepmother, this time it's better. He has... Hercules has two adoptive human parents who love him very much, and I really like that Disney, and this is throughout their films, we see this multiple times, recognises that adoption is a valuable and really important parenting option. I really like that's so important. However, I have some issues with his earth parents. They only told him he was adopted when he was 17. I don't think it's a wonder he was having identity difficulties. I'm actually, based on the information that I've read since, um, I am really surprised he's actually not as distressed as I think he could be by that information. So Hercules is what is known in the literature as a late discovery adoptee. That is someone who finds out well, I'll get into actually how late it is, it's really not that late, but finding out later than they should that they've been adopted. And the common recommendation from professionals, and I should say it will have been since the 90s when this film was made, is that adoption disclosure should be done at the earliest stage possible. Really, you should be talking to a baby about it from the time that they are adopted. Like from if you're adopting a baby, they should you should be talking to them about it. Because even though they're not talking back, they can understand what you're saying. It's very hard to get data on this, on how many adoptive children may have experienced this phenomenon, but in Australia, between the 1920s and the 1970s, an estimated 9% or more of the 200,000 children who were adopted in that 50-year period were late discoverers. So that's like one in ten. That's quite worrying, I think.

Megan 1:03:23

Well, I just had no knowledge of this at all, really. I didn't really, I didn't know there was any suggestion. ..

Bronwen 1:03:29

Yeah.

Megan 1:03:29

And it seems to be more than just a suggestion. All of the professionals are saying you should tell a child.

Bronwen 1:03:35

I'm gonna get into it, Megan. I'm gonna get into it.

Megan 1:03:37

I just I didn't I didn't know.

Bronwen 1:03:39

I'm gonna reference another paper from the Journal of Family Issues.

Megan 1:03:43

Oh!

Bronwen 1:03:44

We're back in the Journal of Family Issues.

Megan 1:03:46

Friends of the Pod!

Bronwen 1:03:47

Friends of the Pod, Journal of Family Issues. What does this say about Disney films that we've gone back to this journal twice? Uh they Baden et al. uh wrote a paper called Delaying Adoption Disclosure: A Survey of Late Discovery Adoptees. So late discovery of adoption is linked to psychological distress and feelings of anger, betrayal, depression, and anxiety. Those who learned of their adoption from age three or older reported more distress and lower life satisfaction when controlling for the amount of time adoptees have known of their adoption status and their use of coping strategies. Three.

Megan 1:04:27

Wow.

Bronwen 1:04:27

Age three. So it's around about the age of three that we start to routinely build memories, build a memory bank that we can go back to. It is possible to develop memories younger than that. But it's around about the age of three that we really start to develop a sense of self-identity. Children will recognise themselves in the mirror, that sort of thing. I was surprised by how early that was, but actually, I was talking to James about it. The psychology makes sense from a developmental perspective. So, yeah, three. Adoptees also indicated a desire for communicative openness and reported beneficial coping methods, including supportive relationships and seeking contact with birth relatives. The person who was the lead author on this paper did an interview about it for their university and they said this: a lot of people think children can't understand the nuances and complexities of adoption when they're young. I often tell families that they can use children's books as guides. As children's books get more detailed and complex as children get older, so should the details and explanations of adoption. Growing up thinking that you know your heritage and then learning uh what you have been told is false is extremely distressing for late discovery adoptees. It can trigger large issues around identity, and identity is already pretty complex. To wait until middle childhood, adolescence, or even adulthood to tell a person that he or she was adopted means that the families would have had to tell many lies, half truths, and total fabrications by the time the truth is finally shared or discovered. Study respondents reported that open communication, supportive relationships, and contact with birth relatives and other adoptees were helpful. One of the most interesting findings was that if we don't account for coping behaviours, those who experienced the most distress from delayed adoption were adolescents, i.e., Hercules' age. However, when we accounted for increased coping skills and options available to adults, we understood that distress actually increased as people got older. Our findings really emphasize how secrecy and lies in adoption become corrosive to those involved. And I've just been thinking about, as I've been speaking, just things like in the modern world, things like your genetics and what you might be predisposed to or not. You might be thinking, oh, like, oh well, there's no cancer in my family or whatever. And actually, you don't know that at all.

Megan 1:06:52

No, I think it would be much harder to keep that secret now.

Bronwen 1:06:56

Yes

Megan 1:06:57

Than even kind of just a few decades ago.

Bronwen 1:06:59

I don't think you could. And that's that's interesting, isn't it actually. One last paper, Passmore et al. in 2008, wrote in the Family Relationships Quarterly the issues of trust and betrayal uh that can be caused by late discovery adoption uh may transfer to other adult relationships. Preliminary evidence is emerging that many of these late discoverers feel that they have not received acknowledgement of the particularity of their experience, the long-term effects of this discovery involving personal losses and disruptive relationships, or recognition that an injustice may have been done to them. So this is what I mean. Hercules is very chill, he's just like, You found me?

Megan 1:07:35

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:07:36

But I think they frame it within the context of it's actually a relief to him because he's like, if I'm if you're what... he's also handed the um, what would we call it? The symbol he's handed the yeah, the symbol of the gods,

Megan 1:07:50

yeah

Bronwen 1:07:50

Which suggests that he might be a god, which

Megan 1:07:52

yeah

Bronwen 1:07:53

I don't know, that that helps knowing that you're not actually mortal. That might help him and his self-esteem and his self-identity. But yeah, he's very relaxed about the whole thing, and he's very comfortable building relationships with Phil and Meg, which I don't think we'd actually see in real life. Once again, I'm here to say that Disney doesn't necessarily represent people in their actual experience as they would have it, but it's an interesting

Megan 1:08:16

Or accurate mythology.

Bronwen 1:08:17

Yeah, exactly.

Megan 1:08:18

We're just here to criticise.

Bronwen 1:08:20

It's a great, it's actually a great film.

Megan 1:08:22

We love this film.

Bronwen 1:08:24

But there we go. So uh late discovery adoption not chill.

Megan 1:08:29

I do like that we return to his adoptive parents twice.

Bronwen 1:08:34

Yes, he gets them house, doesn't it?

Megan 1:08:36

Yeah, he does a really nice house.

Bronwen 1:08:38

He gets he buys them a really nice house, and then right at the end, he goes back to them as well.

Megan 1:08:43

I think that's really good.

Bronwen 1:08:44

Yes.

Megan 1:08:44

You could imagine that maybe in an earlier Disney film he would have just moved on and that would have been them done.

Bronwen 1:08:50

Yes.

Megan 1:08:50

Goodbye, Alcmene.

Bronwen 1:08:51

And hopefully now he can have a relationship with both his adoptive parents and his biological, if we can call it that in a gods way, both parents, uh, which would be amazing because they're both really important.

Music

Megan 1:09:04

Are we ready to talk about the music?

Bronwen 1:09:11

I'm so ready to talk about the music.

Megan 1:09:14

So, Bronwen,

Bronwen 1:09:15

Yeah.

Megan 1:09:15

I wondered if you wanted to start us off talking about the music, because I'm aware that this has some of your favourite Disney music in it.

Bronwen 1:09:23

It does, it does. So, my favourite Disney song of all time is Go the Distance. It is my fight song, it is my little neurospicy heart's fight song. So it was nominated for Best Original Song at the Oscars and Golden Globes, but it lost to My Heart Will Go On from Titanic, which is also a great song.

Megan 1:09:44

Yes, and so big at the time.

Bronwen 1:09:47

It's a huge song. I am less fond of the Michael Bolton version, which was the single.

Megan 1:09:52

I was gonna ask you about that.

Bronwen 1:09:54

So I prefer the film version. Um, but this version, the Michael Bolton version, got to number 24 on the Billboard Hot 100, which is kind of insane. That's like creeping into Taylor Swift's

Megan 1:10:07

Whoa.

Bronwen 1:10:07

Like, like not quite as high as hers, but like by modern standards. And it also got to number one on the hot adult contemporary tracks. So clearly other people disagree with me, but I absolutely love that song. I think it's um really well performed for the film as well. I was really sad about the mus... the musical version. I thought the musical version was really flat. They also sped it up, I felt, listening back to it. They just tried to run through it as quickly as they can. I think that what I also like about it is most... this is what I think the Renaissance would call them the I want song.

Megan 1:10:42

Yes.

Bronwen 1:10:42

I quite like it because most of the I want songs I think are done by women. And I like that, don't get me wrong, I love like, for example, Part of Your World from Ariel. I absolutely love that song. But I like the fact that it's a man because we don't often hear the men do the I want song.

Megan 1:10:59

No, the only other one that springs to mind is Quasimodo singing Out There.

Bronwen 1:11:03

Yes, those are the two, whereas I think basically all the others are...

Megan 1:11:06

Yeah, all the others

Bronwen 1:11:07

and I love Out There as well.

Megan 1:11:08

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:11:08

So yeah, I love this one. It's my fight song. Do you have anything else you want to say about Go The Distance?

Megan 1:11:14

Oh. Well, I was only ... I was going to ask you about the pop version that they put over the credits because this is a thing that they did in the 90s.

Bronwen 1:11:25

Yes.

Megan 1:11:25

And I never like the pop version as much as the original film version.

Bronwen 1:11:30

No. I yeah, I didn't particularly care for it either. Um, it was on one of my CDs, one of my many Disney soundtrack CDs, and I was always a bit like eh, compared to the uh the film version. Uh so the next song I've got some stuff written about is I Won't Say I'm in Love.

Megan 1:11:48

Oh, great song!

Bronwen 1:11:49

Which is a great alternative to the second act love song, which is all you know, like Beauty and the Beast or A Whole New World. This is like an alternate version to that, which I really liked. Um, I also I did like the Belinda Carlisle version of this, which is like the pop version.

Megan 1:12:04

Oh, I don't think I've heard that.

Bronwen 1:12:05

Oh, you're gonna have you're gonna have to listen to it. I quite like it. I think it's quite fun. It's not as good. It's not on the official soundtrack, I'm not quite sure why, but again, I had it on one of my CDs. Um apparently it was written to replace another song called I Can't Believe My Heart, which is a slower ballad. Uh, but they thought that Meg was too tough and hardened by life for the song to be realistic.

Megan 1:12:27

Yes, I read about this. Um, so it was the animator for Meg who actually said, I don't think she would have a normal ballad love song. She's she's too sparky, she's too witty,

Bronwen 1:12:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan 1:12:42

She's too worldly.

Bronwen 1:12:44

Yes, she's too worldly, I think that's the exact word. Yeah, yeah.

Megan 1:12:47

You can listen... So, Susan Egan, who does the voice of Meg and does all the singing, she is fantastic. Um, she has recorded that ballad I Can't Believe My Heart, which I went and listened to, and I thought it was alright, but I much prefer I Won't Say I'm In Love, which is a great song.

Bronwen 1:13:06

Yeah. So the music was composed by Alan Menken, who is probably my favourite Disney composer. He's he's he's an EGOT.

Megan 1:13:16

He's the GOAT.

Bronwen 1:13:17

He is a GOAT.

Megan 1:13:18

He is the GOAT and an EGOT.

Bronwen 1:13:19

He's an EGOT, he's the GOAT, he's a Disney legend, and this was the last Disney Renaissance film for which he composed music. He would come back to compose for Disney again, but not for a little while. And he based I Won't Say I'm In Love on songs that he wrote for Little Shop of Horrors. I do not ...

Megan 1:13:37

Oh, interesting that connection when you don't like Little Shop of Horrors.

Bronwen 1:13:40

I do not like Little Shop of Horrors at all. Yeah, it's a love song with a sense of humour, said lyricist David Zippel. The actress Sarah Egan noted that she struggled to quote keep up with the five women of colour who were playing the Muses, who I'm gonna name, I think it's very important that we name them, because they are sensational, the women who play the Muses. So uh Cheryl Freeman, Lillias White, Vaneese Thomas, LaChanze, and Roz Ryan. Those, they... they're just so good throughout the film. And she said that she struggled to keep up with them because they were doing a lot of ad libs. Speaking of them, they were not the original pick to play the uh the Muses. I will forever be grateful that the Spice Girls did not do this film.

Megan 1:14:35

It doesn't feel right, does it?

Bronwen 1:14:38

Yes. They did... the Spice Girls declined the offer due to scheduling conflicts. And I just think it was much more appropriate to champion a group of women of colour and particularly when they went down the gospel route. The lyricist was David Zippel, who has not, I looked him up on Wikipedia, I have not heard of anything else he has done, which is weird seeing as this is the man who wrote the lyrics for Go the Distance, which is my favourite Disney film, and he doesn't, I don't think ever does any more work for Disney again. Um

Megan 1:15:07

And some of the lyrics in this are so clever.

Bronwen 1:15:10

Yes. I had forgotten until doing this research that there is an... a dropped song from the single called Shooting Star. I had the Boy zone version on one of my Disney soundtracks.

Megan 1:15:20

I listened to that!

Bronwen 1:15:22

It's so 90s.

Megan 1:15:23

It's very cheesy.

Bronwen 1:15:24

Yeah, you can understand why they went with Go the Distance as sort of the I want song because it's so cheesy. Whereas I don't think Go the Distance is.

Megan 1:15:32

I listened to a couple of versions of Shooting Star, and I think the Boy zone one is particularly cheesy. I heard someone else do it, and I thought, okay, I could see what Alan Menken was going for here. Something I noticed again last night listening to it, having done the research and uh having learned about Shooting Star and listened to it, you can still hear bits of Shooting Star in the score. There were these little phrases that I'd never picked up on before, but because I'd gone away and listened to them, I was like, Oh, I can hear Shooting Star in this moment. So I thought that was fun. It still has its presence in the film.

Bronwen 1:16:07

And it's a great... it's another song that does kind of emphasize the neurodiversity from my perspective. It talks about a person who doesn't quite fit in and they're on their own and trying to figure it out. So yeah, but yes, I think they went, they could only have one of those types of song and they went for the right one I think with Go the Distance.

Megan 1:16:25

They still use Shooting Star on the cruise version of the musical. Yeah, because it wasn't in the West End version, but they yeah, they do it on the cruise. I was, I was trying to listen quite carefully to the score because yeah, I thought you would probably focus on the songs. Um and yes, I picked out Shooting Star, which was fun. Um, and also it's, it's sort of, it seems a very obvious thing, but I think it's used to very good effect that there's a really good trumpet fanfare for any time that they're alluding to Mount Olympus, and it's just it's very appropriate, the da da da. It's it's just it's really good.

Bronwen 1:17:07

It's very evocative, isn't it?

Megan 1:17:08

Yes.

Bronwen 1:17:09

Speaking of Mount Olympus, one of my notes here is thinking about the links between this and Snow White. I really thought that the way they presented like Mount Olympus at the right at the beginning is really like the castle at the beginning of Snow White, or like when it's more glowy in Snow White, like when they're not going to heaven or maybe up to heaven. I don't know.

Megan 1:17:30

Well, I thought you were going to say again that it's funny that we're talking about heaven again, which doesn't commonly come into Disney films. Here we are with the golden gates up in the clouds. It just looks uh very heaven-y again.

Bronwen 1:17:44

Shall we talk about the

Megan 1:17:45

Let's talk about the West End musical.

Bronwen 1:17:48

So we went to see it in October, so I think a couple of months after it opened.

Megan 1:17:54

Yeah, it opened sometime in the summer, didn't it? We were relatively early.

Bronwen 1:17:57

Yes. So I I enjoyed it.

Megan 1:18:01

Yeah, me too.

Bronwen 1:18:01

It was fun, and it didn't take itself too seriously, which Hercules shouldn't, and it was appropriately camp, but it was not the film.

Megan 1:18:11

No.

Bronwen 1:18:12

Um my view is all the versions of the songs that are in the film were not as good.

Megan 1:18:19

Yes.

Bronwen 1:18:20

But that might just be natural bias because I do love the songs, and specifically the people that sing them. And listening to the soundtrack of the musical as preparation for the podcast, it didn't fill me with joy, it was a bit of a chore. Um

Megan 1:18:32

I um was listening to it and then I gave up and just read the lyrics.

Bronwen 1:18:36

Oh really? That's interesting. The Muses were again like the best thing.

Megan 1:18:43

They were the standout definitely.

Bronwen 1:18:45

I absolutely... their outfits were so good.

Megan 1:18:48

They were.

Bronwen 1:18:48

They looked so good, all of them. And Hercules didn't make me feel as much as the animated version did. Like, like I say, Go The Distance felt a lot flatter, felt like they were rushing it. And I'm sorry, Luke Brady, I'm sorry, Hun, but he just he just didn't do it for me. I didn't think he was a very relatable Hercules, and Hercules, it needs to be relatable, if he's

Megan 1:19:11

Yeah, I don't think it's his fault. I think it's the material.

Bronwen 1:19:15

The material... that's very fair. We'll blame the material, it's fine. Why did they make Pain and Panic into real people?

Megan 1:19:20

Yes, called like Bob and Charles or something. They didn't even call them Pain and Panic any more.

Bronwen 1:19:25

So Pain and Panic, in my view, are like perhaps some of the best sidekicks from the Renaissance.

Megan 1:19:31

Oh okay, I have a different view.

Bronwen 1:19:33

Oh okay. And it seemed perhaps they couldn't work out how to present them on the stage. But the thing is, is the Lion King, the musical, is right round the corner.

Megan 1:19:43

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:19:44

Like it's it's right near them in Covent Garden. And I'm like, why couldn't they learn anything from them about how to present animals or non-humans?

Megan 1:19:56

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:19:56

But anyway. So you're not a Pain and Panic fan?

Megan 1:19:59

No.

Bronwen 1:20:00

Are you not? Oh I love them!

Megan 1:20:02

Oh no, I don't like them. They're the worst part of the film for me.

Bronwen 1:20:06

Really?

Megan 1:20:06

Them and Phil.

Bronwen 1:20:08

So, yeah, we'll talk about Phil when we talk about women, maybe. I love Pain and I think they're really funny. Like all of the if. If is good. I think that's really funny.

Megan 1:20:18

I think I liked that as a child.

Bronwen 1:20:20

Yeah.

Megan 1:20:21

I've matured.

Bronwen 1:20:22

And I never grew up.

Megan 1:20:23

I've grown up.

Bronwen 1:20:24

Yeah. That's about right.

Megan 1:20:25

I just don't find them funny any more.

Bronwen 1:20:26

Do you not? Oh, I do. Like the squidgy shoes and the we are worms, worthless worms. I think that's really funny.

Megan 1:20:35

No, it's not for me.

Bronwen 1:20:37

Fair enough. Um

Megan 1:20:38

And I think that particularly struck me when I first re-watched it when we did our big Disney watch through. I rated Hercules slightly lower than I have done more recently because the humour just really wasn't hitting me that time. I was thinking, oh no, I remember this being funny and it's just not funny to me anymore. And now some of it is funny to me, but not Pain and Panic.

Bronwen 1:21:03

But anyway, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree, which is fine, we can do that on this podcast. Yeah, I did not like the human versions. Once they're human, I felt the way that you do. I was just like, this isn't funny.

Megan 1:21:15

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:21:15

They're just two stupid people, like there's nothing about it that I like.

Megan 1:21:19

They got rid of Pegasus, no Pegasus in the West End version.

Bronwen 1:21:23

I should say for the record that I have with me my baby Pegasus soft toy. I got him at Disneyland Paris uh during my hen party because I love baby Pegasus, he's so cute. Um I would do anything to have a baby Pegasus that never grows up. So yeah, sorry, getting back to the musical, um, I liked the fact that they made Phil less creepy.

Megan 1:21:47

Yes.

Bronwen 1:21:48

Like we'll get to Phil in the film when we talk about women, but he's less creepy, which I think is nice.

Megan 1:21:53

He just becomes very bland.

Bronwen 1:21:55

Yeah, yeah.

Megan 1:21:55

Again, he's just a dude, he's not a satyr.

Bronwen 1:21:58

Yeah, that's very true.

Megan 1:21:59

Which is more accurate to the myth, but.

Bronwen 1:22:02

And the staging to me felt quite cheap. And what you've said about the fact that the film mixes up the classical worlds in terms of Roman and Greek, makes sense to me because it feels very Vegas coded, and Vegas is supposed to be very Roman theme-like with Caesar's Palace and everything, and so I think it now makes sense. Like it's a continuation of that confusion about where it's actually drawing its influence from. I still thought it looked a little bit cheap, but it makes that makes more sense now that they did that based on what you were just saying there about them mixing those two worlds up.

Megan 1:22:37

I think I had my expectations managed on that because before we went to see it, one of the things I'd heard was that it looks really cheap. And so I went in expecting it to be worse than it was, and some of it I actually thought was quite pretty.

Bronwen 1:22:49

Oh, okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Megan 1:22:52

I I thought the Go the Distance sequence when he's sort of running through the landscape, I thought they did a good job on that. I thought the backdrops behind him that were moving were really beautiful. They had some nice colours.

Bronwen 1:23:03

So I was surprised that Alan Menken worked on it.

Megan 1:23:07

It's not his usual standard.

Bronwen 1:23:09

But I've literally written that. I don't feel this version is up to his usual standard. For example, Despina's lullaby is decidedly meh. I don't know if you even got that far.

Megan 1:23:19

I did actually, and I thought, who's Despina?

Bronwen 1:23:21

I know, I know. I thought that. Today's Gonna Be My Day. That was so cheesy, but not in the right way. I like that Meg got another song and it's one ... Forget About It, which I think is one of the better editions. Oh do you not like it?

Megan 1:23:37

I don't like that song.

Bronwen 1:23:38

I don't think it's good, it's not as good as uh Won't Say I'm in Love, but in terms of the better additions... I like that Hades gets a song, but they're not very good.

Megan 1:23:46

Oh, again, Hades is just a dude.

Bronwen 1:23:49

Yeah, everyone is just a dude.

Megan 1:23:51

Just a dude.

Bronwen 1:23:52

I think that's a really good way of describing it. Everyone is just a dude.

Megan 1:23:55

Except the Muses who are icons.

Bronwen 1:23:57

Yeah, yeah. They should just sing, I'd come to just see the muses. Um, the song Getting Even, I don't know if you got that far, it reminded me of the evil guy song in Wish. This Is The Thanks I Get.

Megan 1:24:11

Bad comparison.

Bronwen 1:24:13

Not a compliment, not a compliment. This Is The Thanks I Get. So I didn't know that this version had an off-Broadway tryout all the way back in 2019, where Roger Bart, who is Hercules in the film, came back to be Hades.

Megan 1:24:30

Oh,

Bronwen 1:24:30

He came back to be Hades, yes.

Megan 1:24:33

Oh weird.

Bronwen 1:24:33

Um, it then went to Hamburg before finally arriving at the West End, and it will be closing in September of this year, which I'm not very surprised about. If you want to go see it, do, I don't think we've exactly been an advertisement for it. Um it's interesting what you said about there being a cruise version because I was thinking as I was re-listening to the soundtrack of like a condensed version of this for me would sit very well as like a park performance, like Beauty and the Beast, something like that, I think would be really good.

Megan 1:25:03

And I think the cruise version really does have that sort of vibe.

Bronwen 1:25:07

I think that could be good.

Megan 1:25:08

Yes.

Bronwen 1:25:09

Yeah.

Megan 1:25:10

No, everything I've seen of the cruise version looks good.

Bronwen 1:25:14

Okay.

Megan 1:25:15

Um it just looks well staged, the costumes look great.

Bronwen 1:25:18

Maybe we'll get to get to see it, who knows?

Megan 1:25:20

Yeah. Given that this musical opened in 2025,

Bronwen 1:25:26

Yeah.

Megan 1:25:27

um, I feel that it could have updated some things that it didn't update.

Bronwen 1:25:30

Yes.

Megan 1:25:31

So in particular, and maybe this will lead us into our next conversation, I felt that they had kept Meg a very 90s love interest.

Bronwen 1:25:43

Yeah.

Megan 1:25:44

Um, and I felt they could have maybe updated her character a little bit. But yes, perhaps perhaps that's more relevant to what we're about to say...

Bronwen 1:25:53

Well, I think we're pretty much ready to talk start talking about uh the women in Hercules and how we feel about them.

Depiction of women

Megan 1:26:02

Um just to open out this section, like we did with Snow White, with the concept of the Bechdel test.

Bronwen 1:26:09

Yes.

Megan 1:26:09

So to remind people, in order to pass the Bechdel test, you have to have two female characters, two named female characters, talking to each other about something other than a man. And again, I have queries over whether this passes the Bechdel test. I don't think it does.

Bronwen 1:26:28

So I've written a note on this. You you tell me what you think. I've said that if the name of the Fates is that... is their name, then I think we can say the film passes the Bechdel test because they're they're like cutting the thing and they're talking about the scissors and everything, so they're not talking about a man.

Megan 1:26:47

Do we ever get their names?

Bronwen 1:26:48

Well, this is the I'm like, if we can say that their name, collective name, is the Fates.

Megan 1:26:54

Oh, I don't think that counts.

Bronwen 1:26:56

You don't think that counts.

Megan 1:26:57

The original Fates did have individual names.

Bronwen 1:27:01

So if they have... I would say no, this film doesn't pass the Bech del test.

Megan 1:27:04

Well, similarly, the Muses have their own names, but do we hear those names?

Bronwen 1:27:10

It just says we are the Muses.

Megan 1:27:11

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:27:12

Goddesses of the arts.

Megan 1:27:14

And uh they sort of talk, sing to Meg, uh, but it's about Hercules.

Bronwen 1:27:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan 1:27:21

Um, so I don't think it passes.

Bronwen 1:27:23

No, I agree. I do not think.

Megan 1:27:25

Even though we do have quite a lot of female characters, they're focused on Hercules.

Bronwen 1:27:30

Yes. So no, my view is this film does not pass the Bechdel test.

Megan 1:27:35

Yeah. So Meg, I think, is really interesting because I really like Meg.

Bronwen 1:27:43

Yeah, so do I. I really like Meg.

Megan 1:27:46

I think she's a great character. I love Susan Egan's portrayal of her. I think she has a great voice, and apparently she really influenced how the character of Meg came out. Um, so Susan Egan was Belle in the Broadway production of Beauty and the Beast. But she always said that she felt like Meg was much closer to her actual character.

Bronwen 1:28:12

Yeah.

Megan 1:28:12

Yeah, I think she has some great lines. I love, I'm a damsel, I'm in distress, I can handle this. Have a nice day.

Bronwen 1:28:21

Yeah.

Megan 1:28:22

I love that. Um, there's another bit where she's talking about men, and she says they think no means yes, and get lost means take me I'm yours.

Bronwen 1:28:29

I've got that. Yes. Which I also think is really sad as well.

Megan 1:28:33

Well, it is, it is, and still very appropriate to today.

Bronwen 1:28:36

I that's why I wrote it down, I was like, so many women would describe this having the same experiences. So yeah. I love Meg. Um I like the the fact that she's a really interesting and mature mix of both being a powerful woman in her own right, she is very self-assured, but she's also controlled, which I think adds a really interesting spin. Um, I also like the fact that she doesn't simply fall for Hercules, the way that Snow White just looks at the prince and goes, Oh. She, you know, she describes herself as a big tough girl. She is more experienced with life than Hercules is.

Megan 1:29:15

Yes, oh definitely.

Bronwen 1:29:16

And that seems that's a strength, her experience.

Megan 1:29:19

Very intentional.

Bronwen 1:29:20

Very yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. But she is also controlled by Hades, and yeah, I wrote that exact same quote.

Megan 1:29:26

But

Bronwen 1:29:27

but

Megan 1:29:28

I think there are some very 90s aspects to her.

Bronwen 1:29:32

I mean her waist.

Megan 1:29:34

Yeah, so let's talk about her design. Uh so she is designed according to Greek shapes, her torso is like a column, and her hips are supposed to be like a pot. And I read an interview with the animator where he laughed that her hips are supposed to be like a pot with little love handles. And that gave me the ick. I think, so she has that great line about being a damsel in distress, but then being able to handle it, and yet at the end, she does just end up being a damsel in distress who has to be saved by Hercules.

Bronwen 1:30:08

That is very true. That is very true.

Megan 1:30:11

I also thought

Bronwen 1:30:12

But she also saves him by, you know, she's

Megan 1:30:15

She pushes him out of the way of a column. That's true.

Bronwen 1:30:18

Yeah.

Megan 1:30:19

That's true. But she has that minor moment, and he has this whole sequence.

Bronwen 1:30:23

Yes, that is true. That is true, yeah.

Megan 1:30:26

And then uh you've got the the classic visual of him carrying her in his arms out of the pool of dead people, and it's just a bit of a trope, big strong man carrying pathetic fainted little girl.

Bronwen 1:30:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan 1:30:43

And the... this is sort of... it's it's only a minor moment, but it did make me think, oh yeah, um, I think we would think better of that now. When all of those fangirls fall on Hercules, and then they get chased out, and Meg refers to them as being um a sea of raging hormones, so again, not being a girl's girl, really.

Bronwen 1:31:08

No,

Megan 1:31:09

And they're presenting her as kind of in inverted commas, not like other girls. She's the sassy one, she's strong, she's independent, she's different .

Bronwen 1:31:16

There's there's some pick me energy there.

Megan 1:31:19

So I I thought that's probably not quite how you would do things now. And when it comes to the musical, I thought ... so, they didn't update any of those things, and in some ways, I thought they did her even worse in that song, Forget About It. Um, that you've got... so she's singing about how she doesn't need to be saved, isn't she? And then Hercules will start singing about how he just he just loves her, he just loves her,

Bronwen 1:31:50

Yeah

Megan 1:31:51

and you've got her... they very much present her as ranting at him, and she'll be like, and that's all I'm gonna say about that. Oh, but another thing, and I thought, oh no, this is such a stereotypical presentation of women as not shutting up, and like, oh I don't like it.

Bronwen 1:32:10

Yeah, that's true, that is true. I hadn't thought of that.

Megan 1:32:13

All of that said, I really like Meg.

Bronwen 1:32:15

Yeah, I think her as a character, generally speaking, potentially the contexts that she's put in are not uh not great, but yeah, she's a great I think she's a great role model for women, generally speaking, I think. I think compared to other Disney girlies who don't have as much like inner strength, potentially, the way that they're presented, potentially. And we see this in the 90s, more of this. Like we could I think she's quite comparable to say Esmeralda in the Hunchback of Notre Dame.

Megan 1:32:43

Yes I was thinking about Esmeralda.

Bronwen 1:32:45

Similar, sort of similar presentations of women, which I like. And I think what's the important thing in my view about these films is not taking potentially individual films and picking the women apart, isn't necessarily the most useful thing to do. Not that we're saying I'm doing we're doing that, but looking at all of them and saying, does this represent womanhood? The many different ways that one can experience one's identity as a woman, um, which is m more than one thing, it's many, many things.

Megan 1:33:12

Yes

Bronwen 1:33:12

I think she's a really important facet to that.

Megan 1:33:16

Yes, and they give her a complicated backstory. There is a lot to her character.

Bronwen 1:33:21

She's not a a simple person, she's not a a completely good person. Um, yeah, yeah, which is useful, I think.

Megan 1:33:30

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:33:30

Can I can we speak about some other women and aspects of women in the film? So yeah, again, uh just the Muses, again, I think I really like this them because they probably show the best body diversity throughout the film between the Muses, which I think is really important.

Megan 1:33:48

I think there is some comedy made out of the fact that one of them is quite short and round.

Bronwen 1:33:54

True. I suppose, yeah, I like the fact that there is one who is shorter and perhaps on larger, just as a concept, and just this is another way of being, but yeah, we shouldn't be making comedy out of that. I agree with that. Um are their stone heads an homage to the Haunted Mansion? That's what I want to know.

Megan 1:34:13

Oh, I think I read somewhere that they were.

Bronwen 1:34:15

I like that. I think that

Megan 1:34:16

That's fun.

Bronwen 1:34:17

I think that's very fun.

Megan 1:34:18

There's another reference to a Disney park thing, which I only picked up on for the first time last night, which is when Hades says it's a small underworld after all. And I was like, It's A Small World reference.

Bronwen 1:34:35

Love it. That's amazing.

Megan 1:34:36

So sorry, not depiction of women, just relevant to the parks.

Bronwen 1:34:39

Yeah. No, so yeah, the women often having this vase figure situation thing going on. I like how it does fit the ancient Greek setting, but it's very 90s.

Megan 1:34:51

Yes.

Bronwen 1:34:52

And it's setting unachievable...

Megan 1:34:54

Yes. There's some equality of that between the sexes, I think, because Meg's figure is unattainable, Hercules' figure is unattainable.

Bronwen 1:35:03

That is true, that it isn't just put on women, and yeah, like we said before, it's just it's a that between Meg and Hercules, you have the 90s epitome of what an ideal body looks like, and it's yeah, it's a little bit problematic. Um, I love the Fates, I think they're hilarious with their one eye and the uh, We know!

Megan 1:35:24

I found them funnier than Pain and Panic, definitely.

Bronwen 1:35:27

I think I think they're very funny. I like how they share an eye. For some reason, I think that's very funny.

Megan 1:35:31

I hate the bit when he picks up the eye from the floor and then takes a hair off.

Bronwen 1:35:38

Whilst we're talking about women, I think we should talk about um the sexy female Pegasus?

Megan 1:35:45

Oh. I try not to think about the sexy female Pegasus.

Bronwen 1:35:48

Very creepy, and I don't like how the way that they deal with Pegasus is to send in a sexy woman or not send in... the seduction thing, it's a little bit weird.

Megan 1:36:00

That particular bit is just too cartoony, isn't it? Even with like the sound effects, it's kind of like wow wow, wow.

Bronwen 1:36:08

I just feel like if... you you'll know way better than me now that, the myths in the Greek myths, there's so much they could have pulled on to sort of be a distraction for Pegasus or whatever, and they decided to... it felt like quite a cheap laugh.

Megan 1:36:22

Yes.

Bronwen 1:36:23

And then Phil.

Megan 1:36:24

Oh Phil.

Bronwen 1:36:25

So Phil is very creepy with a lot of the female characters like nymphs and Meg and the fangirls. But I think he, it's very obvious the film is presenting him as creepy. Like they're not saying that this is okay, he is creepy and he pays for it. He gets slapped a lot, he is sort of um disregarded for his creepiness. So I don't like the creepiness, but the film kind of does have some sort of inner justice for it.

Megan 1:36:54

Yes, he does end up with Aphrodite in the end.

Bronwen 1:36:57

Oh, does he , really? Oh, I can't remember.

Megan 1:37:00

Yeah, Aphrodite kind of gives him a smooch. And he is a bit surprised by it. So I suppose there's self-awareness there that...

Bronwen 1:37:07

And she kisses him, right? And he hasn't been chasing her down.

Megan 1:37:11

Again, I don't think they thought through this in great depth but yes, I find him a very off-putting character in many ways.

Bronwen 1:37:18

Yeah, he is very off-putting.

Final thoughts

Bronwen 1:37:24

Final, like general thoughts before we summarise.

Megan 1:37:27

Yeah, great, go for it.

Bronwen 1:37:28

Um, so um this is a really specific nitpick, but

Megan 1:37:36

I've done plenty of those.

Bronwen 1:37:37

I was, I continue to be really annoyed that Disney Plus is removing the contemporaneous opening castle and putting in the current like i dent . I like the 90s blue castle opening. Why can't they keep it that way? I associate that blue castle with Hercules more than any other film. I don't know why.

Bronwen 1:38:00

I really liked the use of like the colour palettes in this film, the yellows, the oranges, the golds, the use of the sun to create the aesthetic of the film. I think it like the bit where right at the end of Go the Distance, or at some point where he's sort of just seeing his back to the the screen and he's sort of doing putting his arms up. I really like that bit.

Megan 1:38:22

That is lovely.

Bronwen 1:38:23

Um

Megan 1:38:24

I might call it a sky palette.

Bronwen 1:38:27

Yeah.

Megan 1:38:27

Because a lot of the colours that they use kind of make me think of the sky. I think of the main two colours as blue and gold.

Bronwen 1:38:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Megan 1:38:35

Just like a blue sky and the sun.

Bronwen 1:38:37

Yeah.

Megan 1:38:38

It's yeah, it's it's beautiful colours. I I love the look of the thing.

Bronwen 1:38:41

Yeah.

Megan 1:38:42

Because apparently this was quite criticized at the time.

Bronwen 1:38:44

I like the look.

Megan 1:38:45

I love it.

Bronwen 1:38:45

I think that I think the cartoonishness works. It all fits together.

Megan 1:38:49

And I think it's very stylish cartoonishness.

Bronwen 1:38:52

Yes, yeah. And I'm very excited to say that, you know, linking in with your present, we've had the first Disney cat of the podcast.

Megan 1:39:02

Snowball!

Bronwen 1:39:02

Snowball!

Megan 1:39:03

I loved Snowball.

Bronwen 1:39:04

Snowball.

Megan 1:39:05

Snowball who is black because he's been. Oh yes, because all they saved from the house fire was Snowball.

Bronwen 1:39:13

Yeah.

Megan 1:39:13

He presents Snowball, and Snowball is now very smoky.

Bronwen 1:39:16

Yeah. So um, yeah, he's the he is the first cat of the podcast, which is very exciting. We are going to be chasing cats around.

Megan 1:39:26

We are.

Bronwen 1:39:26

Um so yeah, those are all of my final thoughts uh before we summarise. So, Megan, do you have any closing thoughts about Hercules that you would like to share?

Megan 1:39:39

To briefly summarise, I have given this film four stars. Certainly, the last couple of times I've watched it, I've given it four stars. That previous time I mentioned, I gave it three and a half because the humour really wasn't hitting me that time. But um, this time I just really enjoyed it. I feel very nostalgic for it. It's a good time. Um, I love the look of it. My favourite character is probably Meg. Really enjoy Meg. Um but um and and Hades. Hades is funny. Yes, it sparked off an interest in Greek myths as a child, and I thoroughly enjoyed revisiting them for this podcast episode. And uh I enjoy the music very much. What are your final thoughts about Hercules, Bronwen? I know it's probably more meaningful to you than me.

Bronwen 1:40:29

So I'm trying to figure out what I've given this film. So this film is at number three.

Megan 1:40:34

Oh, it's high!

Bronwen 1:40:35

In out of 64 films. So it's very, very high. It gets four and a half stars from me. I love this film. I this is one of those films that I saw as a child but didn't really appreciate for what it was. But as I got older and started to feel weirder and less yeah, less normal and less fitting in, and had experiences not as as bad as being called Jerkules, but you know, I had people make fun of my name an awful lot. This film grew on me to because I really related to the experiences that Hercules was having. Um and I think the message of this film for me, as I kind of mentioned, is like really simple that you know, all of us no matter how different we are or how weird we are, we we can all find somewhere where we belong that we and often that place isn't a physical place, but it's with particular people. And

Megan 1:41:42

Yeah, that is a really nice message.

Bronwen 1:41:43

And not to give up, to go the distance. And it's it's um it's kind of a little emotional, like perhaps it's a little bit too emotional, and perhaps I'm reading too much into it for myself, but I really enjoy that message. I think it's really important, and it was a really important part of my emotional development in the way that Disney films can be, and different different films mean different things to different people. So um, yeah, this film will always be really high for me in my in my rating because it I I feel very a kinship with it, and I also just love the screwball energy of it and Pegasus, and

Megan 1:42:18

Yeah

Bronwen 1:42:19

um so yeah, it's at number three.

Megan 1:42:21

Wow

Bronwen 1:42:22

And um yeah, we've come a long way from Snow White, so Snow White is at number 43, so we've gone up 40 places.

Megan 1:42:32

Well, what about you? Where where is it in your official ranking? 17.

Bronwen 1:42:36

17, okay.

Megan 1:42:38

Yeah, but yeah, so I've also uh jumped up from Snow White, not not nearly as far as you, because for me Snow White was at 32, and now we've jumped up to 17.

Bronwen 1:42:47

But we agree it's it's difficult to call it an improvement, but it's I think this film for me it just it just is emotionally closer to me. Uh I can draw it closer than I can Snow White. Snow White is not a bad film, to be clear.

Megan 1:43:01

No, no. And actually thinking about it, I think... Yeah, it's interesting. I think this one has a real nostalgia value for me because I think what re-watching Snow White made me feel more things this time. And I think it was particularly the quality of the score. Um it's the really beautiful music in Snow White.

Bronwen 1:43:22

Yes, and it was this just to actually link back for a second, was less scored, wasn't it, in terms of the proportion of the film.

Megan 1:43:29

Yes, and I had to listen really hard to the score. Like I made a deliberate attempt to do that. Whereas it can it's it's not nearly as obvious in the texture as the Snow White score is.

Bronwen 1:43:45

I think the songs are more accessible for a modern audience in Hercules. That doesn't necessarily mean they're better, but yeah, the score I would say is better in Snow White.

Megan 1:43:56

Yes.

Bronwen 1:43:56

I think the overall score. Yeah.

The next film draw

Bronwen 1:44:02

Is it time to do our choosing of our next film?

Megan 1:44:09

Yes, I always get so excited about this bit. Are you ready, Bronwen?

Bronwen 1:44:18

I'm ready. Okay.

Megan 1:44:20

She's going in. Okay, picking a name from Mickey's Sorcerer's Hat.

Bronwen 1:44:26

Okay, this is the one.

Megan 1:44:27

Where are we going, Mickey?

Bronwen 1:44:29

Okay, where are we going? Okay, the Great Mouse Detective.

Megan 1:44:35

Oh, I like that one.

Bronwen 1:44:37

Okay, alright.

Megan 1:44:39

That's quite interesting.

Bronwen 1:44:40

That's for most people, that's a deep cut. Ratigan, oh Ratigan. I'm gonna do my whole psychology bit on that bat.

Megan 1:44:53

I used to find that bat quite scary.

Bronwen 1:44:57

It is creepy. I mean, the you're gonna have to tell us about the Sherlock Holmes of it all aren't you.

Megan 1:45:02

Yeah, I'm just gonna have to go away and read all Sherlock Holmes.

Bronwen 1:45:04

Every single Sherlock Holmes book. Yeah, yeah.

Megan 1:45:07

Victorian London.

Bronwen 1:45:09

Yeah, I don't know. I'm gonna have to figure out what I'm gonna talk about.

Megan 1:45:14

There's uh there's quite an emotional bit at the beginning. I'm trying to remember what happens, but it's quite scary for the little girl.

Bronwen 1:45:20

Yeah. Yeah.

Megan 1:45:23

Her father. Oh yes, her father kind of gets attacked and kidnapped, doesn't he? So I feel like there's definitely some trauma there.

Bronwen 1:45:31

There's some trau... Oh, trauma siren. Oh, how interesting.

Megan 1:45:38

And , yeah, we owned it, didn't we?

Bronwen 1:45:41

Yeah.

Megan 1:45:42

I don't feel like it was one we watched all the time. I definitely think Hercules got more viewings.

Bronwen 1:45:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan 1:45:48

Because I'm now I'm now kind of scraping my memory for it. I don't think it has as much sticking power as some of the others.

Bronwen 1:45:58

But I rank this one quite highly, I think. Let's have a look at where I've I've ranked it.

Megan 1:46:03

I seem to remember saying something in my review about just really liking British animals.

Bronwen 1:46:08

It's not as high as... where is it? 30. It's at number 30.

Megan 1:46:14

For me it's 19.

Bronwen 1:46:15

Wow!

Megan 1:46:16

So just a couple of steps down from Hercules.

Bronwen 1:46:19

Wow, okay. I mean, this is another Ron Clements and John Musker. Well, we will have to meet again.

Megan 1:46:29

Yes. In Victorian London.

Bronwen 1:46:30

In Victorian London.

Megan 1:46:32

With some rats.

Bronwen 1:46:32

Yes. I mean the fact that we are geese we'll fit better in with in this film because they're all they're all animals.

Megan 1:46:39

And they're and they're British, so we 'll feel very at home. Finally.

Bronwen 1:46:43

Finally.

Megan 1:46:45

Well, this has been lots of fun.

Bronwen 1:46:46

Yes.

Megan 1:46:47

I really enjoyed talking about Hercules.

Bronwen 1:46:48

I enjoyed talking to you about Hercules. And we look forward to seeing you all on our next episode of our or our next stop on our walking tour. And but until then...

Both 1:47:09

Gabble gabble gabble gabble!

Bronwen 1:47:09

It's so weird.

Outro

Bronwen 1:47:14

This is not an official Disney podcast, and the views expressed are our own. Thanks for joining us on another stop on our walking tour through the Disney landscape. We look forward to seeing you next time. Until then, you can follow us @gabblesisters on Instagram. Be sure to subscribe and rate us wherever you listen to your podcast, and please recommend us to all your Disney pals. Too dly p ip! What are they called again?

Megan 1:47:39

Alcmene.

Bronwen 1:47:40

Alcmene.

Megan 1:47:41

And Amphitryon.

Bronwen 1:47:42

I'm not gonna remember that. And Amphitryon.

Megan 1:47:45

Amphitryon.

Bronwen 1:47:46

Amphitryon and Alphene?

Megan 1:47:49

Alcmene.

Bronwen 1:47:50

Alcmene and Amphitryon.

Megan 1:47:53

Yes. That might be the blooper at the end. Just us constantly going, Alcmene.

Bronwen 1:47:59

Alcmene.

Megan 1:48:00

Amphitryon.

Bronwen 1:48:02

Amphitryon. Okay.