Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs

In this episode we discuss the first Disney animated feature: Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

Follow us @gabblesisters on Instagram.

Email us at gabblesisterspodcast@gmail.com.

Warning: in this episode we touch on topics including death, suicide, child abuse and neglect, and cruelty to animals.

Bibliography:

• Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937) and Disney+ extras
• Snow White (1916)
• Snow White (2025)
• Dopey's Wild Mine Ride (2001)
• Walt Disney: The Triumph of the American Imagination - Neal Gabler (2006)
• Walt Disney: A Life in Films - BBC Radio 4 series (2023)
• The Snow White and the Skilful Huntsman - Brothers Grimm (1884 translation)
• "Stepmother Experiences and Emotional Construction" - Fidan, Clinical and Experimental Psychology (2024)
• "Stepmothers’ Perceptions and Experiences of the Wicked Stepmother Stereotype" - Miller et al., Journal of Family Issues (2017)
• National Autistic Society (2026)
• The Reason I Jump: one boy's voice from the silence of autism - Naoki Higashida (2014)
• Settling the Score podcast (2021 episode)

Transcript

Intro

Magic Mirror 0:00

For what the Queen wants most is to be fairest in the land. She has issues.

Bronwen 0:12

We'll get to that.

Megan 0:18

Welcome to Gabble Sisters. Join us on our walking tour of every Disney animated feature, taking in the history, psychology, and music of a randomly selected film each episode. Think Goose. Forward March.

Bronwen 0:38

Hello Megan, how are you?

Megan 0:40

Hi Bronwen. I'm good, thanks. How are you?

Bronwen 0:43

I'm alright, yeah.

Megan 0:44

I'm excited to talk about Snow White.

Bronwen 0:46

Our first podcast. We hoped it would be random and therefore not the very first film they came out with, but oh well.

Megan 0:53

And it was the first one.

Bronwen 0:54

That's the thing about randomization. It can be...

Megan 0:57

Random

Bronwen 0:58

Anything. Have you done anything Disney related since we last spoke?

Megan 1:04

I, I've brought along something to talk about.

Bronwen 1:07

Oh.

Megan 1:07

Let me get my props.

Bronwen 1:09

She's got props. It's like Blue Peter.

Megan 1:11

So my husband discovered recently that in our little Devon town we have a shop. It's a vape shop, but it also has... it's also started selling collectibles, including Disney pins.

Bronwen 1:29

Oh.

Megan 1:30

So I have started collecting. So I've been collecting two sets so far, the two that they have in the shop. And one of them is Pluto pins. So it's to celebrate his 95th birthday.

Bronwen 1:45

Oh, those are so cute. So for the microphone, there's one of him wearing like a little rain jacket, another one of him dressed like a farmer, I think.

Megan 1:54

I thought it was like a Hawaiian shirt.

Bronwen 1:57

Oh sorry. And then he's wearing like a little winter outfit here. And then one on, I'm assuming his birthday with Mickey.

Megan 2:03

Yeah.

Bronwen 2:03

Oh, those are so cute.

Megan 2:05

He's got a little badge saying 95 on that one. So

Bronwen 2:08

He's looking good for 95.

Megan 2:09

Yeah. There are six of them in the set, and I have bought four so far and had four different ones. So I'm feeling lucky. The other set I've been collecting, so it's less core Disney. It's a Disney acquisition, is Star Wars pins. And so these are...

Bronwen 2:29

I love how the first one you get out is the Attack of the Clones.

Megan 2:34

So they're like little VHS tapes.

Bronwen 2:37

They are very cute.

Megan 2:38

With the covers on.

Bronwen 2:39

They are very cute.

Megan 2:41

And again, there are six available, and they've done episodes one to six. And I have all the even numbers. I have two, four, and six. My favourite being four.

Bronwen 2:49

Yeah, two being just one of the worst films I've ever made.

Megan 2:53

It's not great. So yeah, that is my Disney update of the month.

Bronwen 2:59

Well, I don't have an amazing Disney update, I, I just have a funny story. So work's been quite stressful recently, and when work is stressful, I don't sleep very well. I do the thing which I tell people not to do, which is stare at my phone, which is what you're not supposed to do. And I decided the other night to put on the only Disney Pixar film that I haven't seen.

Megan 3:24

Oh

Bronwen 3:25

Do you know what it is?

Megan 3:26

Oh, let me guess. Let me guess. Okay, so I'm going to say Luca.

Bronwen 3:32

No, I've seen Luca.

Megan 3:33

Oh.

Bronwen 3:34

I saw Luca with you.

Megan 3:36

Really?

Bronwen 3:36

Yeah.

Megan 3:37

Oh, oh yeah, we watched it in ...

Bronwen 3:39

The Fish Boy.

Megan 3:40

Yes.

Bronwen 3:40

Yeah, yeah.

Megan 3:41

Did we watch it in Disney World?

Bronwen 3:42

No.

Megan 3:43

No. When did we...

Bronwen 3:44

We watched it at your house?

Megan 3:47

Oh okay. Fine. That was the most random Pixar film I could think of. No, go on, tell me.

Bronwen 3:53

Cars 3.

Megan 3:54

Oh, of course!

Bronwen 3:56

Cars 3. That was the last one I haven't seen. I was like, okay, fine.

Megan 4:01

I think that might be my favourite of the Cars films.

Bronwen 4:04

I think it is, according to your Letterboxd it is. I couldn't finish it. I would rather... I'd... I turned it off and would just prefer to just stare at the ceiling than watch Cars 3.

Megan 4:16

Yeah, that is telling.

Bronwen 4:18

Cars 3 was bad... Maybe I'm getting too into detail. I find the world of Cars really confusing. An anthropomorphosised world of cars. I have so many questions.

Megan 4:29

Yeah.

Bronwen 4:30

So many questions about how that world works.

Megan 4:32

Yeah. Are there people in this world?

Bronwen 4:35

No, none.

Megan 4:35

It's only cars.

Bronwen 4:36

It's just cars. Who is making the cars?

Megan 4:38

Yeah. How do they come into being?

Bronwen 4:40

Yeah. How do they how do they come into being? How do they build all of their buildings? Like Big Ben exists. Because in the second one they go to London. How did they build Big Ben? They don't have opposable thumbs Megan. They don't have opposable thumbs.

Megan 4:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Bronwen 4:55

Anyway, I don't... I... that's, that's so far out of what we're supposed to be talking about.

Megan 4:59

We can have a conversation about that way down the line.

Bronwen 5:02

Way down the line, we can talk about that.

Our relationship with the film

Bronwen 5:07

So Megan, do you remember watching Snow White for the first time?

Megan 5:11

I don't remember.

Bronwen 5:13

I don't either. No.

Megan 5:14

So we didn't own it, did we? We used to get it out of the library on DVD, which kind of places it a little bit later. But I think we must have seen it before that.

Bronwen 5:28

Yes, I agree. I agree. I remember getting it out of the library. I remember getting it out of the library for a very specific reason.

Megan 5:34

Yes. We used to get it out of the library because it has an extra on the DVD called Dopey's Wild Mine Train. Is that the name?

Bronwen 5:44

Ride Train.

Megan 5:45

Dopey's Wild Mine Ride?

Bronwen 5:47

That's it, that's it.

Megan 5:48

We should know, we've just watched a video of someone playing it. And it was basically a quiz. Like you just had to answer questions about the film. And it was surprisingly hard.

Bronwen 5:59

Yeah.

Megan 6:00

And clearly such were the thrills of our childhood that that was a highlight getting that that DVD out of the library in order to play this very basic game.

Bronwen 6:10

I remember not really wanting to watch the film that much.

Megan 6:12

Yeah.

Bronwen 6:12

Just wanting to play the game.

Megan 6:14

It probably would have helped us if we'd watched the film, because then we'd have known the answers to the questions.

Bronwen 6:18

Yes.

Megan 6:18

But we just wanted to play the game.

Bronwen 6:20

We did. I can't remember when we first saw it, no.

Megan 6:23

No.

Bronwen 6:23

No.

Megan 6:24

No me neither.

Bronwen 6:25

It's one of those films that's just been for so many people, because it's so old now.

Megan 6:29

Yeah.

Bronwen 6:29

Nearly 90 years old. 90 years old next year.

Megan 6:33

Yeah.

Bronwen 6:34

It's just a kind of like furniture in the back of the room that you haven't really paid attention to for so long. Like it's just there, isn't it? And what about when you watched it most recently? You've watched it a few times. You've been reciting it.

Megan 6:50

So I've actually only watched it twice.

Bronwen 6:53

Oh okay.

Megan 6:53

Since we last spoke.

Bronwen 6:55

Okay.

Megan 6:55

So I watched it at the beginning with my husband, and then I watched it again yesterday,

Bronwen 7:03

Yeah

Megan 7:03

Kind of having done all the research and then to get it in my mind. Yes, on the drive over here, I was listening to the soundtrack as I drove, and I just, I could just fill in the dialogue. I just knew. It's very memorable. So yeah, shall I talk about what I thought this time round? So I guess I wasn't terribly excited to watch Snow White again. I think partly because it's so memorable, I feel like I don't really need to, it's in my head. But, but, I did really enjoy watching it with Nicholas. He hadn't seen it for a very, very long time, so it was kind of fresher to him. So it was interesting to get his thoughts on it. And then particularly as I was doing all the research about the film, I found myself more and more impressed by the achievement. And both times watching it this time, I was just charmed by it, really. It's it's so lovely, it's very nostalgic and emotive, and there were particular moments that really got me, and yeah, I enjoyed it more than I expected to, and, I think it really holds up for being 89 years old.

Bronwen 8:27

Yeah.

Megan 8:27

What I didn't love was the dwarfs.

Bronwen 8:30

Oh really?

Megan 8:32

It's a lot of shenanigans,

Bronwen 8:34

Yes

Megan 8:34

and I'm not really into shenanigans.

Bronwen 8:36

And ...I maybe we'll get more into this, but from watching the behind the scenes things, it... I got the sense that the animators had quite a rough and tumble relationship with each other, and that was being represented on screen by the dwarfs having a lot of shenanigans, a lot of beating each other up, a lot of unnecessary drama, which I felt was maybe they were representing their own relationship.

Megan 9:00

Yeah,

Bronwen 9:01

In that.

Megan 9:01

Do we think they're very male shenanigans? All the animators were male.

Bronwen 9:06

Because they're all male, it's really difficult to say, isn't it?

Megan 9:09

Yeah.

Bronwen 9:10

Like they, they haven't given the women an opportunity to... and we'll get into that.

Megan 9:14

Yeah.

Bronwen 9:15

We'll get into that.

Megan 9:15

We'll get into it.

Bronwen 9:17

Okay.

Megan 9:18

So, Bronwen, what did you think coming back to it for the podcast?

Bronwen 9:22

I've watched it a couple of times recently. One time James wanted to watch it fairly recently because he was ill and he sees it very much as a comfort film. And I can see why. And then I watched it again more recently when we were preparing for the podcast. And yeah, I... I agree with all that. I... the first thing I noticed when I switched it on this, this most recent time round is what we can see right now, what ,what Disney Plus say as it's sort of tag line, which is "discover the movie called the greatest animation film of all time". Did you look into this?

Megan 9:56

No!

Bronwen 9:57

I did, so I looked into this. So in 2008, it was the American Film Institute that named it as the greatest animation film of all time.

Megan 10:06

Okay.

Bronwen 10:07

I question whether in 2008 it was the greatest animation film of all time. But like you said, I think what that line does at least is really honour the scale of what it was that they did. I think it cannot be underestimated that before this time, before this film, a feature-length animation did not exist, and it was considered to not be possible to exist, that there's no point to it, that it's not possible to make, and so I think for that reason, that's where this film gets my respect. I think.

Megan 10:43

Yeah, definitely.

Bronwen 10:44

Yes. Is it... do I consider it today the greatest animation film of all time? I don't know what even that phrase really means.

Megan 10:50

No, it's hard, isn't it? And I think... we have both revealed in the last episode where this film is in our Disney rankings. And for me it's about halfway through the list. So clearly, for me personally, I don't consider it the greatest animated film of all time because I have things higher on my Disney list.

Bronwen 11:10

Yeah.

Megan 11:11

But it is such an achievement.

Bronwen 11:13

It is the grandmother, great grandmother of every animation, every animation film anywhere in the world, basically, to have come after it. It is the ...

Megan 11:24

It was the progenitor.

Bronwen 11:25

Yes, it needs to exist for everything else to come after it. So thank you, Disney, for that.

Megan 11:32

Thank you. Yeah.

Synopsis

Bronwen 11:36

Instead of doing a plot summary, Megan, I have written three haikus.

Megan 11:43

Because we wanted to be brief, didn't we? Because we're talking about films that everyone knows, and well, particularly Snow White, and hopefully anyone listening to this will have gone and reminded themselves of the film.

Bronwen 11:55

I think it should be said at this point. This podcast assumes that you have watched the film. So yeah, we thought instead of go doing like a really long synopsis, let's do it in a more fun way. So I have three haikus. Megan, your job is to guess from whose perspective this haiku is written.

Megan 12:12

I'm so excited. Before we begin,

Bronwen 12:14

Yes,

Megan 12:15

Should we just say what a haiku is? Just in case people are not familiar with them.

Bronwen 12:20

It is a Japanese form of poem. The way that a haiku is written is you write five syllables in the first sentence, seven syllables in the second, and five in the third. Okay. So here I go. The huntsman, he failed. I just want to be fairest. Where is that apple?

Megan 12:45

Nice. So that's the queen. That's the queen.

Bronwen 12:47

Yep. This is the second one. Okay. Estranged from my stepmum. I just want my prince to come. What's in that apple?

Megan 12:58

So that's Snow white.

Bronwen 13:00

That's Snow White.

Megan 13:00

Yeah.

Bronwen 13:01

This is the third one. 'Twas love at first sight. Oh wait, she's in her coffin. Oh wait, now she's back.

Megan 13:14

So I have two contenders for this.

Bronwen 13:18

Oh really?

Megan 13:20

Yes, because it could be the prince. I think you're probably going for the prince, but equally, I think it could be Bashful. Cuz Bashful fell in love with her at first sight, didn't he? And then she was in her coffin and then she was back.

Bronwen 13:37

I didn't realise that Bashful was in love with her. I thought he was just...

Megan 13:40

Oh, I thought that was his thing.

Bronwen 13:42

I thought he was just doing it because she was a girl. But yeah, it's the Prince.

Megan 13:46

Okay.

Bronwen 13:46

It's the Prince.

Megan 13:47

Nice.

Bronwen 13:48

I was also gonna do one. ... I was gonna do one from Dopey's perspective.

Megan 13:52

Oh, but can... is he capable of writing a haiku?

Bronwen 13:56

Is communicating through haiku appropriate to represent Dopey?

Megan 13:58

Is he verbal?

Bronwen 14:00

Well, we're gonna get all into that, Megan. I've got a whole thing about it.

Megan 14:02

Okay, I'm excited.

Bronwen 14:04

But I decided to not do one from Dopey's perspective because I don't think that's how Dopey communicates, and that's fine. And that is fine.

Megan 14:09

Yeah.

History

Bronwen 14:14

So Megan, tell us about the history surrounding this film. There's a lot.

Megan 14:20

Yes, yes. So we we will try and keep this quite condensed.

Bronwen 14:24

Yeah.

Megan 14:25

But I think mainly we've got the historical context of making this film and also the history that we see represented in the film. So if we talk about the historical context of making the film first, and I'm not an expert on animation or anything like that, but it is worth kind of providing a little bit of context as to what Walt Disney was doing at the this time and what the company were doing. So this film came out in 1937, and Disney had been thinking about doing an animated feature-length film since 1933. He decided on Snow White in 1934. So I think the big context that we have for this is the Great Depression, which ran from 1929 to 1939, following the Wall Street Crash. It was a time of poverty and unemployment, and I think that explains a lot about the making of this film and what we see in it as well, the things they decided to say. So Disney had been working in animated shorts through the 1930s, so the Silly Symphonies and the Mickey Mouse cartoons, and so those in particular made use of synchronised sound, which we see a lot of in this film.

Bronwen 15:53

It sort of became his hallmark, really. I mean, they were saying that no one had really done that before him. So the stuff that I... behind the scenes stuff I watched, that he was one of the first people to do that synchronised music and animation.

Megan 16:06

Yeah, absolutely. And then certainly we know this is the first feature-length version of that. So the Great Depression provides the economic context for wanting to do this. So, what was happening in the Depression was that cinemas were offering a lot more double features so that people got more bang for their buck when they bought a cinema ticket, and that meant that there was less time for shorts to be shown. That's where the Silly Symphonies and the Mickey Mouse cartoons were appearing, were at the cinema kind of before films. But if you've got a double feature, then there's more film time and less short time.

Bronwen 16:48

Yeah, yeah.

Megan 16:48

And so Disney - it, it gave him more opportunities creatively as well. He wanted to expand his storytelling, he was always wanting to move on to next thing - that was the sort of character that he was, but it gave a sort of financial reason to want to do an animated feature-length film so that people went to the cinema for that. People, I'm sure you came across this in your research... People didn't think it was a good idea.

Bronwen 17:13

No.

Megan 17:14

It was called Disney's Folly while he was making it, and they were making it for years, and he went into a lot of debt, he took out multiple loans, it went massively over budget, and people were thinking it was just a fool's errand, and that but obviously it actually did really well.

Bronwen 17:30

And like I mean the conglomerate that is now the Disney company, which is just huge...

Megan 17:38

Yes.

Bronwen 17:38

It's based on this - this was the cornerstone.

Megan 17:43

Yes, if he just kept going with shorts, there were other companies that were doing shorts as well. Disney set itself apart by starting to do these featuring animated films. I thought I would say as well about the Great Depression that the shorts - they were already providing a sort of emotional relief for people. So a couple of years earlier, the short The Three Little Pigs had been really successful, and in that you've got that song "Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf?" and that became a sort of a symbol of the Depression, the Big Bad Wolf, and people would sing "Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf?" talking about the Depression. It also, in terms of a practical context, the Depression explains why Walt Disney was able to recruit the talent that he was able to in terms of animators, because no one else was hiring. No one else was being this foolish, in inverted commas. So everyone who was a good animator, they were coming to Disney. Then the Depression as well, I think, explains the messages that they chose to impart in this film. So the sentimentality is quite typical of the time. And that... I think if you look at the songs as well, in particular, there are a lot of happy working songs.

Bronwen 19:01

Yes, you're right. "Whistle While You Work" and "Heigh-Ho".

Megan 19:04

Yep.

Bronwen 19:04

Yes.

Megan 19:05

And even "With a Smile and a Song."

Bronwen 19:07

Yes.

Megan 19:08

Which Snow White sings to the animals when she meets them. That particular song might not even have been written for this project. It's quite generic. And yeah, I've just got the words here because they just seem to represent Depression values. So it's: With a smile and a song, life is just like a bright sunny day, your cares fade away, and your heart is young. And then later on it said: There's no use in grumbling when raindrops come tumbling. Remember, you're the one who can fill the world with sunshine.

Bronwen 19:40

I mean, I wish that were true.

Megan 19:41

Yes. So you've got all of these songs about working and being happy about it. I think that probably represents Walt's character quite well as well, because he had a very strong work ethic and kind of he expected that.

Bronwen 19:57

Probably too strong, considering you know how young he died.

Megan 20:00

Yes, yeah, that might have been to do with the smoking as well.

Bronwen 20:03

Yeah. Don't smoke kids.

Megan 20:06

But he worked very hard, he was very demanding of the people who worked for him.

Bronwen 20:11

Yes.

Megan 20:12

And we see those ethics coming across in this film.

Bronwen 20:17

Yeah.

Megan 20:18

So that's kind of the main messages I had about the historical, practical context of making this film. I don't know if there's anything else we wanted to discuss on that note.

Bronwen 20:32

Tiny couple of other things that I noticed while watching the behind-the-scenes stuff, specifically about the role of women at the time in the studio. In the background information, one of the behind-the-scenes sort of films that are on Disney Plus, there are a couple of quotes which I thought were really interesting. So someone says at one point that women were told that there would be no women in animation on this film, or indeed ever, because then the men couldn't be as free with their gags.

Megan 21:01

Mmm.

Bronwen 21:02

Which says something about how animation was thought about, I think, particularly pre-Snow White, it was all about the gag. And we know even with this film that, like, for example, he was paying people extra if they're got a gag.

Megan 21:14

Yeah, five dollars a gag.

Bronwen 21:16

Yeah,

Megan 21:16

Or ten dollars for a really good one.

Bronwen 21:17

And this says something that number one, women can't do gags, and number two, that men feel they'd have to be a bit more careful with the gags that they are presenting, which is quite interesting.

Megan 21:27

It makes you wonder, doesn't it? Because I don't think any gags that made it into this film are like inappropriate.

Bronwen 21:38

Yeah.

Megan 21:38

There are, there are a couple of bits that don't make it into the film where I thought, oh, that's a bit...

Bronwen 21:45

Oh yes, we'll get to... Yes, yes.

Megan 21:47

Is now an appropriate time to mention those?

Bronwen 21:50

So I have one that in reference to the alternative version of the meet -cute where Snow White and the Prince meet. The prince kisses Snow White at the well, she gives a little scream and runs away. I find that quite creepy, and then there was the bit around the dwarfs. Is it... there was a deleted scene, and they're thinking about a present to get her.

Megan 22:18

Yes.

Bronwen 22:18

Grumpy says, get her something useful, like a mop.

Megan 22:21

Yeah, I wrote that one down too.

Bronwen 22:23

Yes.

Megan 22:24

I also, in that same scene, that's the bed building scene that didn't make it into the film. And I also thought with that one that there's this bit where... is it Dopey or one of the dwarfs is going round like stealing bits of clothes from the other dwarfs to make like a pillowcase or something? And that... he, he's always like approaching them from behind, and he'll stick his hands sort of up the back of their shirts. And it's like he's pulling like their underwear or something. Because it's just in pencil, it's not all that clear, but it always looked really odd.

Bronwen 23:00

Yes. No, no, I remember that now. Yes, a bit odd.

Megan 23:04

There there are quite a few bottom jokes in this.

Bronwen 23:07

There are a few bottom jokes.

Megan 23:08

Like Dopey's bottom being plumped as a pillow.

Bronwen 23:11

As a pillow.

Megan 23:12

Yeah.

Bronwen 23:13

The other thing that I noticed at this point, in terms of women in the history of the studio, is there was another quote talking about inking and painting, because that's where women were allowed.

Megan 23:23

Yes.

Bronwen 23:24

It said the inking and painting department was described as a nunnery. We weren't allowed in the animation building. And actually, the men weren't allowed in the inking and painting building, except the person that was like a messenger, and he'd sort of come in and like toss the note and then run away again.

Megan 23:39

Yeah.

Bronwen 23:40

There's something really interesting about the segregation of the sexes.

Megan 23:42

Yes.

Bronwen 23:43

It says something about animation and perhaps the culture of how men and women are together.

Megan 23:48

I got the impression that they socialized quite a lot outside of the core work. You see like photos and videos of them just like on the grass and stuff and playing games and things. But yes, in terms of work, they were really separate. I think now is probably the moment to mention the, my favourite fact that I learned about the making of this film, which you'll have seen in the Disney Plus extras, which is that originally when they coloured in Snow White, they thought that her face looked a bit flat. And it was the women in Paint and Ink who said, Oh, we can we can put some blusher on her to bring some life to her face, and Disney said, Oh, but it would need to be in exactly the same place each time. And the women we were like, it's okay, we know where blusher should go, and they did such a fantastic job. Because yes, it really does bring her face to life.

Bronwen 24:46

It would be too pale, yeah.

Megan 24:49

Yeah, so I think they did a really good job there, and yeah, I think that's really cool. It's interesting as well that at the beginning of this film there's that little message from Walt Disney thanking the people who worked on the film.

Bronwen 25:01

Yes.

Megan 25:02

Which is nice. I think it's a nice touch, but we also know that he did work them flipping hard.

Bronwen 25:07

He worked them very hard.

Megan 25:09

So it's quite right that he thanked them.

Bronwen 25:11

Yeah, yeah.

Megan 25:13

Do you know the name of the actress who voiced Snow White?

Bronwen 25:19

I've got it written down on here.

Megan 25:20

Ah, right. Okay.

Bronwen 25:21

Yeah, I wrote something actually down about her. Where is she? Adriana Caselotti.

Megan 25:27

Yes, yes. So well done. You had it in your notes, but why would you know when she's not credited?

Bronwen 25:34

Is she not credited?

Megan 25:35

She's not credited.

Bronwen 25:36

Sh... I know she only became a Disney legend in 1994, and she was the first female voiceover artist to achieve this.

Megan 25:45

Mmm. That's interesting.

Bronwen 25:47

But yeah, she, she... I didn't realise she wasn't credited.

Megan 25:49

So, right, so there's quite a lot here. So none of the voice actors are credited.

Bronwen 25:54

Oh.

Megan 25:55

It's the animators who are credited, and I think this all ties in with Disney wanting these characters to be solely Disney characters. And in fact, Adriana Caselotti, she was paid $970 in total for the film, which even at the time was not very much, for how much work she put into it. She also had to get permission from Disney to do any other roles because Disney really wanted this to be the voice of Snow White, and he didn't want it turning up elsewhere and people going, but that's Snow White.

Bronwen 26:39

How does he expect her to live?

Megan 26:41

Yeah, good question.

Bronwen 26:42

I also know, you might have read this as well, I think I read this on her Wikipedia page. He found out about her because she was the daughter of a talent scout who was trying to find somebody, and he was, he was on the phone with Disney, and she takes the phone off her father and says to Disney, Oh, you should hire me. He liked her because she only sounded 14 years old.

Megan 27:05

Yes.

Bronwen 27:05

But she was 18.

Megan 27:07

What they were looking for was someone who sounded like a child but had operatic training. So yes, it was her dad who was a vocal coach.

Bronwen 27:17

Oh I see, it was a vocal coach.

Megan 27:19

And so she picked up the phone and she said, I can do it.

Bronwen 27:23

Isn't it a little bit creepy that this is a story about a girl who is being fallen in love with and is gonna go off and marry her the Prince of her dreams and he wants her to sound 14 years old?

Megan 27:33

So in the original tale, which we'll come on to in a second when I talk about the history represented in the film, in the original tale, she's seven. So, like, they did better than that, I guess.

Bronwen 27:52

In the original tale, is there like a prince character that she goes off and ...

Megan 27:59

It's interesting because I also read this thing about her being fourteen, and I think it comes up in the Disney Plus extras, doesn't it, that they were thinking of her as fourteen. I don't think she reads as fourteen.

Bronwen 28:10

No.

Megan 28:10

Certainly when I was a child, I thought she was an adult.

Bronwen 28:13

Yeah, yeah.

Megan 28:14

A nd I still, watching it still, I think she's a young adult.

Bronwen 28:20

Yeah. Okay, let's, let's, shall we move on to the history of the story, where it's come from.

Megan 28:28

So it's based on the 1812 Grimm's Brothers fairy tale. And Walt obviously wanted a simple, well-known story that people would know that would allow them not to really focus on the story but to focus on the beautiful animation and the colours and the music. So one of the other things in contention was Alice in Wonderland.

Bronwen 28:55

Oh really, how interesting. He comes back to that later on, obviously. Oh, okay.

Megan 29:00

Yes, but yeah, he decided on Snow White, which I think was a good decision. It is a simple story, definitely.

Bronwen 29:07

Yeah.

Megan 29:07

He was particularly inspired by a 1916 silent film version of the story. He made a significant change from that story, which was that he introduced the kiss element.

Bronwen 29:23

Right, okay, as in at the end.

Megan 29:25

Yes. So previously, Snow White wasn't woken up by the prince kissing her. There are so many versions of this story, but the general one was that the apple got lodged in her throat.

Bronwen 29:37

Oh.

Megan 29:37

And then something happens like the prince has his men carry the coffin away and the apple gets dislodged from her throat and she wakes up.

Bronwen 29:47

Oh, I see. So they sort of Heimlich her?

Megan 29:47

Yeah. Not intentionally.

Bronwen 29:52

And even though it's been a long... like, days.

Megan 29:55

Yeah.

Bronwen 29:56

Okay.

Megan 29:56

And that that's what happens in the silent film version.

Bronwen 29:59

I see, that it gets lodged in her throat.

Megan 30:01

But he introduces the kiss element, which I think is quite interesting, particularly from a modern-day perspective.

Bronwen 30:07

So I wonder if we can talk about the kiss for a minute, because there's quite a lot of discussion about that kiss. There is a view that it's is not consensual and therefore is problematic. I've got to say, and maybe I maybe we'll we might disagree on this, and that's okay. I'm not sure I agree with that. She's dead.

Megan 30:29

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Bronwen 30:30

And I, I don't mean to get too morbid on the podcast. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry, everyone. But like, if we think about someone who we love very much who has died, I think generally speaking, it is considered appropriate to touch that person, potentially kiss them as a part of your grieving process. I understand that this is a little bit different because she's 14 and they don't really know each other and all of that. I don't know. What, what, what do you think about it?

Megan 30:59

I think I'm in agreement with you because she has met the prince before. And is quite clear about the fact that she immediately fell in love with him.

Bronwen 31:10

Yes.

Megan 31:10

And she wants him to turn up and she wants to marry him, and we can get onto that. But he's not just some random who's turned up and kissed her.

Bronwen 31:19

Yeah.

Megan 31:19

It's interesting to compare this to the 2025 live action version, which I don't want to talk about too much. But with that, they're very careful and kind of, it just, it has to be quite clumsy. They're very careful to get consent first. So they sing this song to each other about "wake me up with a kiss" or something like that. And you think, why would anyone be saying that to each other?

Bronwen 31:45

It's very interesting. I remember just a few years ago on like social media there was this sort of really big conversation about it, about the issue of consent around this. And yeah, I, I, obviously other views are available, and I don't want to talk over anyone else's experience. But in my view, my more... the more of the issue is the idea of like she has to be saved by a man.

Megan 32:04

Yeah

Bronwen 32:05

Nowhere in that spell is the ability for her to save herself.

Megan 32:09

Yeah.

Bronwen 32:10

Whereas, yeah, the 2025 version, well, we can talk about that. But yes, it tries to ...

Megan 32:15

It gets consent in writing.

Bronwen 32:18

It gets the consent, and then she actually is the one that goes and saves the the...

Megan 32:22

And it doesn't make any sense.

Bronwen 32:23

No, it makes no sense, but we'll we'll get to that.

Megan 32:26

Yeah.

Bronwen 32:26

How interesting. Okay.

Megan 32:27

So yeah, he introduced the kiss. So I think that's interesting.

Bronwen 32:30

That is very interesting.

Megan 32:31

Something that I feel like is worth saying at this point is the fact that this is a story with a lot of iterations. And you hear people talk about the Disnification of fairy tales and the changes that they've made. Whereas this has been happening since the year dot.

Bronwen 32:53

Yeah.

Megan 32:54

So the Brothers Grimm, they are not the oracles of fairy tales, they didn't come up with them. Their plan was to record this spoken folklore. And they did various editions of their fairy tales, and they changed the story as they went along. I just think it's important to say. As they became more popular, and particularly with middle class families, they sort of updated the stories to be a bit more family-friendly, so they lose some of the darker elements, so that's been happening forever. They make it a little bit more moralistic, and one of the things - I think this might be interesting when we come to the psychology - is that in the first version of the story that they wrote down, it is not the stepmother who is the queen, it is Snow White's biological mother.

Bronwen 33:47

Oh well that changes everything.

Megan 33:50

Yeah, I think that's a really significant change, isn't it? They had to separate her a bit. I have a tiny bit more to say on the history.

Bronwen 33:58

Say more.

Megan 33:58

So I had I set myself the challenge of trying to work out when and where Snow White takes place. Which is

Bronwen 34:07

Somewhere in Europe.

Megan 34:08

Yes, yeah.

Bronwen 34:10

I would say like Germany.

Megan 34:13

Okay.

Bronwen 34:14

Austria, Switzerland. It's got that slightly sort of Schengen vibe. Like with the cuckoo clock and everything.

Megan 34:21

Yes, yeah, that's a good thought. Yeah.

Bronwen 34:22

That's all I've got.

Megan 34:23

Yeah, no, I think that's very astute. We know that uh the fairy tale draws inspiration from the Brothers Grimm, so it's a very Germanic tale. We know that the castle is inspired by European castles, in particular, possibly Segovia Castle in Spain.

Bronwen 34:40

Oh really, Spain, okay.

Megan 34:42

Yeah, yeah, but then also Bavarian castles as well. But then in terms of the flora and fauna, that's quite American, isn't it? Because you've got like chipmunks and raccoon s.

Bronwen 34:52

Yes! I hadn't really thought of that, but I was gonna say the same thing about music. The music feels very European on the base, but then when you actually start to see it made into more complex pieces, it then starts to feel much more Americanised. Um yeah, it's got a very uh distinct American feel to it with a European traditional ...

Megan 35:13

Yes, and I thought with the voices as well, it's mostly American accents. You've got Grumpy who randomly has a southern states accent, but the Queen has a British accent. So starting well, maybe not starting, but that traditional trope of British people being villains.

Bronwen 35:34

Well, I mean, are they wrong?

Megan 35:36

Ooh, question: do you remember the first word that is spoken in the film?

Bronwen 35:41

Is it her doing the incantations like magic mirror on the wall?

Megan 35:45

So it's slightly earlier than that. It is that scene, but the first thing that she says to the magic mirror is slave in the magic mirror. The first word is slave!

Bronwen 35:57

The first word of a Disney animation feature is slave.

Megan 36:01

Slave

Bronwen 36:03

Fantastic!

Megan 36:04

Slave in the Magic Mirror.

Bronwen 36:06

Wow.

Megan 36:06

She has a fantastic voice. I've written her name down because she was great. Lucille Laverne. She was brilliant.

Bronwen 36:12

Yes.

Megan 36:13

So that was yeah, what I worked out in terms of the location of the film. A combination of European and American. And then in terms of when it's set, again it's this combination of things, I think. So the castle is very medieval. The costumes I had quite a fun time with trying to work out where they were from. Um, because there are definitely elements from my favourite time period. You've got kind of got very early modern stuff going on with these high collars and the hood that the queen is wearing. And then Snow White has these puffed sleeves with slashes in them that show the colour through. And that was a traditional thing that you see in portraits to show that you were rich.

Bronwen 36:58

Yeah.

Megan 36:58

That kind of you've got two layers of fabric.

Bronwen 37:01

My sleeves have two layers.

Megan 37:03

Different colours. Um, so that's very early modern. But then Snow White's shoes are really funny. So Nicholas observed this when we were watching it - that the first scene where she's wearing her rags, she's wearing clogs. So that's very European, also very practical. Um, but then the second outfit that she wears for most of the film with the red, blue, and yellow dress, she's wearing these little heels, which are very 1930s.

Bronwen 37:32

Right.

Megan 37:32

And Nicholas was going, those are very impractical. She should put her clogs back on.

Bronwen 37:37

Of course he would say that.

Megan 37:39

And also, so the other thing that makes it very modern day is her hair and makeup is so 1930s.

Bronwen 37:45

Just looking at the queen there. I have to say, as much as I didn't enjoy Galgamo as

Megan 37:52

Galgamo?

Bronwen 37:53

Gal what's her name?

Megan 37:54

Gal Gadot.

Bronwen 37:55

They got her really looking like this.

Megan 37:57

They did, yeah.

Bronwen 37:59

That to me, the amount of makeup that she's wearing there.

Megan 38:03

Yes, her makeup is 1930s as well. Isn't it - those very thin eyebrows and the purple eyeshadow?

Bronwen 38:10

And the big lips.

Megan 38:12

Yeah.

Bronwen 38:12

Yeah. She's got a bit of blush as well.

Megan 38:15

I wonder if I can show you a photo. She is inspired by a very particular person in history. And you'll see this picture and you'll go, oh my goodness, it's the Evil Queen.

Bronwen 38:30

Oh yeah.

Megan 38:31

So this is an 11th-century noblewoman called Uta von Ballenstedt. Did you read about earlier iterations of The Evil Queen?

Bronwen 38:42

No.

Megan 38:43

So a few years before this, there was a Betty Boop version. Where Betty Boop is Snow White, and you can actually see the connection, can't you? If you look at the Disney Snow White, she does look a little bit Betty Boopy.

Bronwen 38:56

Yes.

Megan 38:56

I think there were some animators in common. So that was

Bronwen 39:00

Interesting.

Megan 39:00

Yeah, that was a few years earlier. And the evil queen in that was very frumpy. And that was the tradition. But I don't really understand that when the whole thing is that the queen is the fairest of them all until Snow White comes along.

Bronwen 39:15

Yes.

Megan 39:16

I guess it's that idea of ugliness equals evil. And then the only other thing I had to say about when it was set was also to do with the music. So again, so you noted the combination of European and American. It's clearly very Romantic music. It's got influences from things like Tchaikovsky and Wagner, and it's got that kind of turn of the 20th century operetta tone, and hence choosing Adriana Casaletti... Casalotti to be Snow White. She's got that very operatic tone. So that then puts it in a much more modern day context. So it's this big mishmash of things that are familiar, things that are historic, and I think that contributes to it feeling like a fantasy. Disney has combined all of these different elements to come up with a perfect fantasy of a fairy tale.

Psychology

Megan 40:16

So, Bronwen, what would you like to say about the psychological elements of this film?

Bronwen 40:24

So I looked at two very different areas when I was doing my research. I started by looking at, looking at the research on the relationship between stepmothers and stepdaughters. Because this doesn't make sense to me. This relationship between Snow White / stepmother is contrived, and so I was like, is there anything in the literature that makes this make sense? So I'll start there. Uh the first thing I should say is I'm looking, I looked at research that is peer-reviewed and all that, but for anyone who's listening who is a stepmother, stepchild, and this doesn't meet your experience, that is fine. This is just research, it doesn't mean it applies to everyone. But I started by looking at a paper written in 2024 by someone called Fidan. Apologies if I said your name wrong. Uh, Stepmother Experiences and Emotional Construction from the Journal of Clinical and Experimental Psychology. They gave some useful context, which I think is really important when we're thinking about these relationships. So it's estimated that these days, so in 2024, it was estimated that 40 to 50% of couples divorced their first marriage.

Megan 41:31

Gosh.

Bronwen 41:32

And over 25% of these people that got divorced remarry in remarriages that involve children who then become step families.

Megan 41:43

Okay.

Bronwen 41:43

So step families are a significant proportion of ... as a subcategory of family structure.

Megan 41:50

Presumably much more common now than it was in the 1930s.

Bronwen 41:54

Yes, yes. What we have, we used to refer to, well we still do refer to, the nuclear family, which is, for those of you who haven't heard that phrase, the what some people might call the traditional family of mum, dad, and one, two, three children that are all biologically the biological children of those two parents. That's becoming less and less the norm when when we have step families, when we have other ways of having children, when we have homosexual couples having children. So yeah, it the the the nuclear family is not nearly as common or isn't as much the prevailing narrative of this is how family should be. There's many different ways that a family can be. And parenting roles now extend much more beyond biological ties, i.e., I don't just... you can't just say I love this person because 50% of their genetics came from me. It has to go beyond that.

Bronwen 42:55

Excluding Chinese culture, which is really interesting because in that culture, stepmothers are depicted as suffering angels to take on someone else's children and do it.

Megan 43:07

Yeah, that's interesting.

Bronwen 43:08

Stepmothers are often blamed for family problems in stepfamilies, and this is partly due to the evil stepmother myth that is perpetuated by the culture. So, although there are studies on the problems faced by stepmothers, most research is given, looks at the family more generally. So I'm gonna start there looking at stepdaughters' experience, really, and then we'll get into stepmothers, but there is far less, which says something again about who do we choose to privilege when writing research on this subject.

Bronwen 43:41

Stepmothers' primary issue is feeling not integrated into the family and being excluded from fundamental family functions. Both stepmothers who are integrated into pre existing structure and stepchildren see themselves as primary members of the family, i.e., everyone has a lot of main character energy. And when you have a step where you have to go through a transition, which is always a challenging time for a family, if for either in a divorce or the death of a parent, what this research doesn't look at is the difference between, so in this case with Snow White, her mother dies, whereas divorce is like you said, is much more common now than it would have been in 1937 when this was made. But any any time of transition obviously is going to be difficult, and people feel the need to have to re-establish what their roles are in a family.

Bronwen 44:35

The competition for affection and the distribution of resources are major issues in a family. In this situation, stepmothers who feel isolated and excluded struggle to integrate with family members and experience intense negative emotions. So again, this doesn't really make quite sense. Doesn't make sense to me in the context of this film.

Megan 44:55

No.

Bronwen 44:56

Because Snow White's stepmother had I mean, she's bossing it. She's got a crown on her head. She is the queen. I don't understand how she can feel isolated or excluded. In this version, we'll come to that.

Megan 45:10

Yes.

Bronwen 45:10

We'll come to that.

Megan 45:12

Many other versions exist.

Bronwen 45:13

So studies focusing on step-family relationships show significant communication difficulties between stepmothers and stepdaughters. However, some studies indicate a mutually agreeable relationship. Contrary to the evil stepmother myth. There are stepmothers who play a positive role in resolving conflicts between stepchildren and their biological fathers. Despite these positive traits, fears about the future of children and stepfamilies are often attributed to step-mothers. Stepmotherhood, influenced by historical and cultural constructs, is stigmatized and marginalized. There are women who emerge significantly harmed from the stepmother experience and argue that this cultural construction is justified. So effectively, what that is saying is being a stepmother can be all sorts of different things. And that that really is going to depend on the step in both directions, the kind of stepmother that you are, the kind of stepchildren that you have. So it's not a simple thing, i.e., not all step-mothers are evil.

Megan 46:09

Yeah.

Bronwen 46:10

There will be some stepmothers out there who are dreadful. In the same way that there are some biological mothers out there who are dreadful.

Megan 46:17

Not our mother.

Bronwen 46:18

Not our mother, no. No. She's she's the greatest of them all. Um so and yeah, the the stereotypes that follow stepmotherhood around are actually are really ne... have a very negative impact on the relationships. And I think this film plays a significant part in that.

Megan 46:38

Yes, I mean it is tapping into a pre-existing trope because we know the stepmother thing goes back to the Brothers Grimm and one of their later editions where they change it from the mother into the stepmother. So presumably they were significant in starting the whole trope.

Bronwen 46:58

Must have been, yes. So, yeah, I mean, stepdaughters can often feel isolated and marginalised within the family due to the presence of new stepmothers. This situation arises not only from the behaviours of stepmothers but also from the attention and affection fathers show towards their new spouses. We don't see that in this film because the father is very absent. He's just absent.

Megan 47:18

Yes.

Bronwen 47:18

But we can see her being isolated and marginalized for reasons that don't quite make sense, really, in an actual human world. I absolutely understand we're talking about a fairy tale.

Megan 47:27

Yes.

Bronwen 47:27

But it doesn't really map on. Participants in... who were talking in the interviews that this researcher did expressed experiencing negative emotions such as loneliness, guilt, shame, doubt, anger, and disappointment in their roles as stepchildren with blended family structures. Something that should be mentioned here is what we don't have in this relationship are the relationships between step siblings. But we'll come to that. I already have plans for discussing that on another film.

Megan 47:55

Ooh.

Bronwen 47:55

You might be able to guess which one it is.

Megan 47:57

Cinderella.

Bronwen 47:58

Yes! We'll come back to that. Feelings of jealousy and competition are common. Stepchildren often envy the attention their fathers give new spouses and stepsiblings, leading to emotional conflicts. Again, we don't really see that in this film.

Megan 48:14

No, I mean jealousy is the overriding emotion here, isn't it? She is jealous of Snow White. But I don't think that has anything really to do with their familial relationship. She's just jealous of Snow White being prettier.

Bronwen 48:31

It could have been, Snow White could have just been a servant working in the, in the castle who happened to be very pretty. Because apparently that's the most important thing.

Megan 48:41

Yeah.

Bronwen 48:42

Negative relationships between stepmothers and stepchildren contribute to overall family unhappiness and discord. Some participants noted that their relationships with stepmothers exacerbated intrafamily conflicts. Stepmothers often feel distant and prejudiced against by biological children and other family members. Despite most negative experiences, some participants reported developing positive relationships and expressed gratitude towards them. That's nice, isn't it?

Bronwen 49:11

So Miller et al. wrote a paper for the Journal of Family Issues, Stepmothers' Perceptions and Experiences of the Wicked Stepmother Stereotype. So the majority of stepmothers reported awareness of or identification with the stereotype in salient stepfamily situations. This included situations in which they judged themselves according to gendered expectations of motherhood. They also perceived they were stereotyped by stepchildren, the stepchildren's mothers, and social situations. They reported a number of cognitive and behavioural strategies for coping with the stigma attached to the wicked stepmother stereotype, including seeking support, using humour. I mean she's got a great cackle on her, doesn't she?

Megan 49:55

She does.

Bronwen 49:56

Adopting a resistant attitude. I think she's quite resistant. Engaging in strategies designed to minimize the relevance of the stereotype and concealment. So I don't know how the stepmother feels about that. I feel like she does whatever she wants. I wanted to watch the new version of Snow White to look at whether this is... whether this relationship makes any more sense based in the research and why stepmothers and stepdaughters can have very difficult relationships, whether they have thought about that anymore.

Megan 50:25

It's the sort of thing they try harder to do, isn't it?

Bronwen 50:28

And I have to say, I was quite disappointed in in this. I think the fact that we see Snow White and her actual mother and the relationship that they had, and then her dying, and then the new person coming in, allows us to understand a bit more of the complexity of their relationship. It doesn't line up with the research though, I would say, because it was all about political power, whereas what we can see it's much more about feeling included in the family unit. Whereas the evil queen never seems interested in that. She ... and this is what I found very frustrating. She literally just wanders in. She literally wanders in, and the king goes, Yeah, I'll marry you.

Megan 51:08

You're pretty.

Bronwen 51:09

You're pretty, I will marry you. And then and then we just get back into this trope again. I was disappointed in in the uh in the live-action version.

Megan 51:19

Shocker.

Bronwen 51:20

So the Too Long Didn't Read about all of this is the integration into a stepfamily is not an easy endeavour, and this can lead to challenging difficulties for stepparents, specifically in this case, looking at stepmothers and children again, specifically looking at step-daughters. While some of the negative attitudes towards stepmothers may sometimes hold truth in individual cases, the cultural stereotypes surrounding step-mothers that are found in Western culture, a lot of it can go back to this film and the stereotypes found in fairy tales and all that sort of thing, they're not helpful in supporting good family dynamics. So it's fun to watch, obviously, but isn't necessarily actually very healthy. So yeah, that is that on that section, generally.

Megan 52:04

Yes, I have some thoughts about that. It struck me while you were saying it that we don't see the Queen and Snow White interact until very late on in the film.

Bronwen 52:17

Yes.

Megan 52:18

When the Queen is dressed up as the peddler woman, and Snow White doesn't even know it's the Queen. So there's no knowing interaction between stepmother and stepdaughter, which is quite odd, really.

Bronwen 52:31

I agree.

Megan 52:32

Yeah. It's just an interesting thing. I think something that explains all of this really is that it is deliberately such a simple story.

Bronwen 52:43

Yes.

Megan 52:43

It doesn't have nuances.

Bronwen 52:45

No.

Megan 52:45

It doesn't have a single nuance.

Bronwen 52:47

No new nuance whatsoever.

Megan 52:49

Yep.

Bronwen 52:50

And that's okay.

Megan 52:50

Yeah.

Bronwen 52:51

I think if we're able, and that if we are very clear about that, and what the point of this film is, the point of the Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs was not to really get into the psychology of this relationship and try and unpick it and perhaps give a different view of how things could be. The point was to tell a fairy story and to show off the animation.

Megan 53:11

Yes, exactly.

Bronwen 53:12

Um so I'm being mean, but I'm

Megan 53:15

That's what we're here for.

Bronwen 53:16

That's why I'm here.

Megan 53:18

Having said that, um this might be an appropriate moment for me to ask you about something I read about the psychology in this film, which is to do with the influence of Walt Disney's own psychology and his background and childhood.

Bronwen 53:36

Yes.

Megan 53:36

Um, which might have influenced his decision in choosing this story. So I read quite a few people pointing out that he had a very domineering parent. Now, for him, it's not a stepmother, it's his biological father. He certainly felt very oppressed by his father, who was very stern, and he used to punish them with a switch, which is like a rod. And Walt Disney used to escape off into nature to get away from his father's ever-increasingly bad moods. And so there are a lot of commentators who have pointed out that it's interesting that he chose this story with a very domineering parent as his first one. So I wondered if you had any thoughts about that. It's obviously quite a different situation.

Bronwen 54:33

No, well, I think the way that we can understand it and bring the his... Walt and Snow White's experiences together is through what's called in the research adverse childhood experiences or ACEs. The reason I know about them is because the more adverse childhood experiences you've had, the more likely you are to experience mental health difficulties when you're older. But they are it's it's a way of operationalizing the negative things that happen to children that can have a significant impact for the rest of their lives. I should say at this point that they are debated, the use of them isn't always agreed upon.

Megan 55:09

Okay.

Bronwen 55:09

But it's a useful way of just starting a conversation. So if we look at them, there's sort of three main categories. There's ten recognized ACEs under three categories. So the first is abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and verbal abuse. I think we can agree that both Snow White and Walt experienced abuse at least of one of those kinds - you just said he was physically abused. The next one is neglect, emotional and physical neglect. I think both of them were probably emotionally neglected. And then household dysfunction. So drug and alcohol problems in the family, mental health problems in the family, domestic abuse in the home, uh, a parent or an adult, close adult who've spent time in prison, and probably the most contentious of all of these ACEs, parents who have separated. But I think what we can also put in there, which isn't agreed on, is death of a parent as well. The childhood adversity that they both had, and I think the way that they both deal with it is by wishing or hoping for a better future. That's what they're both kind of doing.

Megan 56:10

And I I think it's significant for Walt that he often he disappeared into nature to escape from his father. He lived on a farm and he had this real tenderness for animals. Most of the time. Well, so in case anyone doesn't know, there is this famous incident where Walt... he stomped on an owl

Bronwen 56:32

to death,

Megan 56:33

which is tragic. And owls are like my favourite animal. But I was I was reading more about this, and it is really sad actually that he was he was startled by the owl, and so it was just this very sort of automatic response that he then stomped on it, and he had nightmares about that afterwards and felt so bad.

Bronwen 56:55

But what I... I mean that's good. I will say that if you look at sort of forensic psychology, often the sign that someone is gonna go on and do really bad things is hurting animals in childhood. That's a big sign that someone isn't okay. So thank goodness that Walt Disney decided to put his energy into making Walt Disney World or Walt Disneyla... Disneyland.

Megan 57:18

I do get the impression that the owl thing it wasn't deliberate. Presumably it's deliberately hurting animals in childhood.

Bronwen 57:24

And enjoying it. And enjoying it, yeah. Okay.

Megan 57:27

Did you ,uh you had a second...?

Bronwen 57:28

My second thing was about Dopey.

Megan 57:30

Ah, good. Well, my second, I've written down questions for you about psychology, and the first one was about Walt. The second one was about Dopey.

Bronwen 57:39

Okay, so um, I have a lot of thoughts about Dopey, I'll try and summarise them. So I think it's interesting to start with the animators' view of Dopey. So they literally described him as quote, he hasn't grown up, he's cute, he's childlike, he's dressed in cast-off clothes, he's floppy to be amusing, there's a vacant look in his eyes. The word Dopey, I looked it up in the dictionary, um, means stupid or inane.

Megan 58:08

Sorry, just to interject just about the name, there was a fear at the time that "dopey" had just come to be associated with like drugs.

Bronwen 58:20

Yes, the second definition is sort of like drunk.

Megan 58:23

Yes. So they were worried that Dopey might be interpreted that way as being drug ged up.

Bronwen 58:29

Okay. I would say the main difference between Dopey and his brothers, colleagues, lovers. Who knows? Who knows?

Megan 58:39

They do share a bedroom.

Bronwen 58:40

They do. Anyway, between him and his companions, is that he doesn't speak. Okay, that's the main thing. So the first thing I actually had to think about was how do... what do we call this? So initially the words that came into my head was mute. But actually, the research I did is that's not a good word to use because Dopey is actually not mute. Dopey makes sounds.

Megan 59:02

He screams when he sees Snow White.

Bronwen 59:04

He pretends to snore, he cries. Um, yeah, so he's quite loud.

Megan 59:10

He plays the drums, he's a good drummer.

Bronwen 59:13

If you look it up, yeah, if you look it up online, the word that then comes up is the word asphasia, which means the inability or impaired ability to produce speech. The problem with that word is that it suggests at an organic cause.

Megan 59:30

Okay.

Bronwen 59:31

So for those who are not a neuro... people like me, I'm not a neuroperson, that suggests that he's experienced something like a stroke or a severe brain injury or something neurodegenerative such as dementia. But Dopey doesn't present with any other major deficits compared to his peers. So it would appear to me that it has a functional cause as opposed to organic. I .e he could literally create speech, his brain isn't stopping him from doing it, but he isn't.

Megan 1:00:01

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:00:01

So the words that we prefer to use for this are non-verbal or non-speaking, non-speaking being the preferred term these days. It is often but not always associated with neurodiversity. So somewhere around 25 to 40% of autistic people define themselves as non-speaking. It's important to note at this point, the research is clear that not speaking does not mean that a person is lacking intelligence. So I come back to the fact that he's called Dopey.

Megan 1:00:34

Yes.

Bronwen 1:00:35

It's not ideal. It's not ideal. Now, I should start by saying a couple of things. Um, I'm I don't want to speak for autistic people on their behalf. I'm also not saying that Dopey is autistic. All I'm saying is that there's a very strong link between his... the primary reason he is called what he is and being autistic. Um I think the representation of that trait and through that trait, potentially neurodiversity, is problematic as he is constantly infantilised and treated really badly throughout this film.

Megan 1:01:05

Oh yes, yes,

Bronwen 1:01:06

The dwarves literally walk all over him.

Megan 1:01:09

They send him up to see the monster.

Bronwen 1:01:12

He is always at the back, except when he is sent into danger first.

Megan 1:01:16

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:01:16

He accidentally eats soap.

Megan 1:01:18

Yes, and we never see it come out again because they deleted the Music in Your Soup scene where it actually comes out of him.

Bronwen 1:01:27

He is presented to and treated by Snow White in a much more childlike way, and his head is shoved underwater. They kind of waterboard him.

Megan 1:01:35

They do. Yeah.

Bronwen 1:01:38

Now, as I ment... I think we mentioned earlier that you could argue all the dwarves treat each other quite roughly, like they're quite rough with Grumpy at one point. It gets a bit like when Grumpy won't wash his hands, and it seems like that represents.

Megan 1:01:49

Again, they shove him underwater.

Bronwen 1:01:50

Yeah. Again, that might represent how the animators were sort of treating each other to a certain extent, but it also appears that the rest of the dwarves, they also know Dopey well, and he in this version, the 1937 version, the dwarves know him well, and he isn't having to explain himself. They can interpret the non-verbal forms of communication that he's giving. Um, but I think it's worth saying at this point the impact of not... of being non-speaking. So this is from the National Autistic Society website, which is the main British charity supporting autistic people. The impact of communication differences include judgment and rejection by peers, including bullying. I think we see some of that for Dopey. Difficulty making and maintaining friendships, tiredness and fatigue, anxiety, frustration, embarrassment, self-consciousness, and low self-esteem. I think we see some of that in the newer version. Um, increased risk of feeling isolated and lonely, challenges engaging in education and work, mental health problems such as anxiety and depression, masking yourself in order to act like a non-autistic person, trying to be in line with social norms, which negatively impacts autistic people, and also the presumption that people... that a person cannot complete activities of daily living. So, my concern is that this film plays into those stereotypes and without any sort of commentary on that. I want to go on and talk about the live-action version to see what they do because they obviously do some different things with Dopey.

Megan 1:03:20

Yes.

Bronwen 1:03:20

Before I do, in order to not just speak over autistic people, I want to quote from this book I'm showing Megan now. It's by a young man called Naoki Higashida. It's called The Reason I Jump: One Boy's Voice from the Science of Autism. So uh Naoki is autistic, he is non-speaking. He wrote this book to talk about his experience. It's a really good book.

Megan 1:03:44

Oh, that's brilliant.

Bronwen 1:03:45

Um, and he wrote this about not speaking. He says, not being able to talk means not being able to share what you're thinking and feeling. It's like being a doll spending your whole life in isolation without dreams and without hopes. Sometimes people with autism speak with a strange intonation or use language in a different way. Non-autistic people can sort out what they want to say in real time whilst they're having a conversation, but in our case, the words we want to say and the words we can say don't always match that well.

Bronwen 1:04:18

I should have said at the top of this bit when I was talking about autism, uh, different people use the phrase with autism and autistic uh in different ways. Uh, generally speaking, the autistic community's preference is for

Megan 1:04:35

identity.

Bronwen 1:04:35

Identity... for identity first language. So I've been referring to autistic people. Naoki has referred to people with autism. That obviously is probably his preference. It also might be something to do with the translation because it's been translated.

Megan 1:04:49

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:04:49

But just to say there are differences in language. So I went back and looked at Dopey again. I think in the live-action version, he is represented more by... he's more of an equal member in the group, I think. He is still causing problems at work, like he still does the thing of putting the diamonds in his eyes, and then he manages to mess up like the belt thing that they have going on and stuff. He's still at the back of the group. Rather than being sent into danger, he is locked in with the danger, i.e., this time he isn't shoved in first to see Snow White, but the others like run out when she wakes up and he's locked in there. She treats him more like the rest of the dwarves, and actually, one of the dwarves ends up saying to Grumpy at one point, just because his name is Dopey doesn't mean he's actually a dope. Which I get. I like that, but I also am like, why is he still called Dopey? I guess I get that they have to call him Dopey.

Megan 1:05:42

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:05:42

And they haven't really addressed the problem. Dopey says, or Snow White asks Dopey, Do you not speak because you're afraid to speak? And he nods to that. And that is not in line with what we know about people who are non speaking, as we just heard from Naoki. It's not because he's afraid, it's because the ability to produce language at the right time isn't the same for autistic people or for people who are non-speaking. What I really liked was Snow White teaching him to whistle. That is a form of what's called AAC or alternative or augmented communication. So the person can still communicate. The problem isn't that they're not able to speak, it's the problem comes when the person can't communicate how they're feeling. So by whistling, he's given more of an ability to kind of say how he or communicate how he is feeling, and I really liked that. He's also the one that's able to communicate with the animals. The others are like... they speak to him, which I really like. But the ending I found really, really sad because once he is brave, he speaks.

Megan 1:06:47

Yes.

Bronwen 1:06:48

Disney had such an amazing opportunity to present non-speaking people in a way where their communication form is still accepted and important, and instead they just make him neurotypical again and put words in his mouth.

Megan 1:07:03

They present him as fixed.

Bronwen 1:07:05

And then at the end it turns out he's the one who's telling the story.

Megan 1:07:08

Oh, I forgot that.

Bronwen 1:07:09

Yeah. So I just found that really frustrating. They could have done something really beautiful there in representing people who probably so rarely see themselves represented in film and they didn't.

Megan 1:07:22

Yes.

Bronwen 1:07:23

So yes. Those are all of my thoughts on Dopey.

Megan 1:07:27

Right. I had some information for you on Dopey.

Bronwen 1:07:32

Okay.

Megan 1:07:33

So, I don't know if you came across this in your research, but in the early 2000s, there was an idea for a Snow White prequel.

Bronwen 1:07:42

Okay.

Megan 1:07:42

That was called The Seven Dwarfs.

Bronwen 1:07:45

Yeah.

Megan 1:07:45

And it was, so the backstory of where the dwarfs came from. It was gonna be like this epic scale story with Dopey and Grumpy at its heart, kind of going on this mission adventure thing and picking up all the other dwarfs as they went.

Bronwen 1:08:06

A bit like Dopey's Mine Train.

Megan 1:08:07

Well, yeah, I suppose so. So that sort of kind of answers a question we had about whether they're related or whatever. No, not according to this.

Bronwen 1:08:18

They're not related. But they all live together, so it's like shared employment accommodation.

Megan 1:08:22

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:08:22

Like at a hospital where you have like accommodation. Okay.

Megan 1:08:26

There is no official source for this. But there was commentary at the time that suggested that as part of this story, Dopey was going to be given a traumatic backstory to explain why he didn't speak.

Bronwen 1:08:43

I see.

Megan 1:08:44

And the main story that kept coming out was that he saw his mother die.

Bronwen 1:08:49

Okay. What you've just described there is what is known more as selective mutism, which is again the idea that a person can physically form speech, but they struggle to due to external influences. Again, it is more common in the autistic community than probably anywhere else. You probably find the highest population of selectively mute people. That phrase isn't really liked because it sounds like the person is choosing to be silent when they're not. It isn't that it just means that for it, it's particularly in social contexts that they really struggle to speak. The idea that someone would just stop speaking completely after their mother's death is probably unlikely. But I I like the idea that they had put some thought into explaining it because in the original film it just says he never learned how. And that's just not neuro... what we would expect from like a neurodevelopmental perspective that someone wouldn't learn how to create a single verbal utterance. You know, he did he... he must have babbled, he must have created some sort of sound. To be able to create the sounds that he does shows that he has some control over his vocal cords. So but that's interesting. But yeah, it's... but even that still fits into like an autistic frame.

Megan 1:10:10

Yeah, interesting. Okay. While we're here and talking about the background of the dwarfs,

Bronwen 1:10:16

yes,

Megan 1:10:16

This is not really relevant to psychology. But um, I wanted to tell you a thing I discovered, which is that um it is it is canon um that the dwarfs were born with beards.

Bronwen 1:10:34

Except Dopey, obviously.

Megan 1:10:36

Except Dopey.

Bronwen 1:10:36

Ooh, that's a little bit

Megan 1:10:39

Because the silly song had more verses to begin with. And one of them was this verse that um I I don't have the whole thing here, I just have the relevant bit, which says, I was born without a nighty, so I wrapped my beard around my legs and used it as a didee.

Bronwen 1:11:00

That's more information than I needed

Megan 1:11:02

which is presumably like a diaper?

Bronwen 1:11:05

Yeah I'm assuming.

Megan 1:11:07

So yes.

Bronwen 1:11:08

I thought it was really interesting the the line that Snow White says when she... this is before she's met them. She thinks that they're children, and then it's "where is their mother? If they don't have a mother, then they are orphans." Is a direct quote.

Megan 1:11:24

Oh, that is interesting.

Bronwen 1:11:26

Isn't that interesting? That even if their father were alive.

Megan 1:11:29

Ah, go back to Walt.

Bronwen 1:11:31

Goes back to Walt.

Megan 1:11:32

Yes.

Bronwen 1:11:32

Walt, because he... I don't know what happened to his mother. Did she die? Obviously, she's died ...

Megan 1:11:37

I think she was around. I think she was around for all of his childhood.

Bronwen 1:11:41

There's something about that basically a father isn't really a parent.

Megan 1:11:43

No, it's all about the mother.

Bronwen 1:11:45

Okay, is there anything else I wanted to say about dwarves? Oh, they're all exactly the same age.

Megan 1:11:51

Oh, how do you know that?

Bronwen 1:11:52

In the live action version, they say how old they are.

Megan 1:11:55

Oh yes, they do, don't they? They're like hundreds of years old.

Bronwen 1:11:57

Yeah.

Megan 1:11:58

Which I think was a deliberate ploy in the live action one where they are very clearly making a distinction between people in real life with dwarfism.

Bronwen 1:12:10

Yeah.

Megan 1:12:10

And then these kind of fantasy dwarfs. And that they obviously decided to use CGI rather than casting dwarfs.

Bronwen 1:12:18

I mean they're not even called dwarfs.

Megan 1:12:20

Oh, are they not.

Bronwen 1:12:22

They never say the word dwarf.

Megan 1:12:23

Oh and the title is just Snow White.

Bronwen 1:12:26

The word dwarf is not used.

Megan 1:12:26

That's interesting.

Bronwen 1:12:27

Yeah.

Megan 1:12:28

Because something I learned as well is that obviously it's quite interesting in the title of this that it's Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

Bronwen 1:12:36

Yes.

Megan 1:12:36

Which we would think that dwarves with a V is the plural. But apparently that was popularised by Tolkien. Interestingly, The Hobbit came out exactly the same year as this, 1937. And that was the first use of dwarves as a plural. And so even now there is this distinction between dwarves with a V tends to refer to dwarves in fantasy. Whereas dwarfs in real life, it's the fs plural that's preferred. And so we have this distinction.

Music

Bronwen 1:13:15

Yeah, shall we talk about the music?

Megan 1:13:17

Let's talk about the music, Bronwen.

Bronwen 1:13:19

So I thought the soundtrack is quite long, it's an hour 13 minutes. The film is one hour 29 minutes. The vast majority of the film was scored.

Megan 1:13:29

Yes, there were 1500 pages of music.

Bronwen 1:13:32

1500. Wow.

Megan 1:13:34

And the longest stint without music is 22 seconds.

Bronwen 1:13:38

Wow, that is crazy.

Megan 1:13:40

Can you think when that is?

Bronwen 1:13:43

Dunno, tell me.

Megan 1:13:45

It's just after the Silly Song. When they're saying to her, now you do something, tell us a story, and she's like, Oh, well. And then she goes into Someday My Prince Will Come. That's the longest stint without music. So, yes, it is an incredible amount of music.

Bronwen 1:13:59

Yeah.

Megan 1:14:00

Also, on the soundtrack, you probably discovered this, it was the first soundtrack that was released for a feature-length film.

Bronwen 1:14:08

So Frank Churchill has numerous Disney writing credits. I was very sad to kind of work out that this was the only one he was alive for.

Megan 1:14:20

Oh, I didn't know that.

Bronwen 1:14:21

So he took his life in 1943.

Megan 1:14:24

Oh, gosh.

Bronwen 1:14:24

Which is very sad. He had had a bit of an argument with Walt about the Bambi music. And I think it's very important when we're discussing suicide to not put suicide down to one thing. We also know that he was really struggling with his mental health, but sometimes like Walt has been demonised for this. I think it's important we don't do that. But yeah, it was the only one he was alive for. So his music was used in other films after his death. That this was the only one he actually was credited for during his lifetime.

Megan 1:14:54

Wow. And what a great job he did.

Bronwen 1:14:56

He's still not a Disney legend.

Megan 1:14:58

Oh.

Bronwen 1:14:59

Which I think is very sad.

Megan 1:15:00

Oh, he should be.

Bronwen 1:15:01

Yeah. So of those three, Frank Churchill, Lee Harling, and Paul Smith, I think only one of them has been made a Disney legend.

Megan 1:15:09

I wonder if it was the one who wrote Someday My Prince Will Come. Because same person wrote Someday My Prince Will Come and When You Wish Upon A Star.

Bronwen 1:15:18

So it's probably that one.

Megan 1:15:19

And you can see the connective material between those. Yeah.

Bronwen 1:15:22

I thought it was really interesting that they got Larry Maury, the lyricist, on as a lyricist, but he was also a sequence director. Because it's obviously such a link between the music and the sequencing.

Megan 1:15:33

Yes. Synchronised sound.

Bronwen 1:15:36

Yeah, so Heigh Ho stayed in the charts for 10 weeks. I have a question for you as the wife of an organ player.

Megan 1:15:43

Yes!

Bronwen 1:15:44

There's multiple uses of the organ in this film. Tell me about them. Are they good?

Megan 1:15:49

Yes, yes. I mean, so I think the first one we see is Grumpy playing the organ in the Silly Song, which is just really fun. Nicholas loved the design of the organ with the wooden pipes and the little animals and opening their mouths to open the holes, and he was very intrigued by the way that the bellows worked on this organ because Grumpy has to kind of use one buttock at a time to press down on the bellows. And Nicholas was saying, that that looks difficult. I don't think that would really work. And then I'll embarrass him now. The other main use of the organ is in that scene when Snow White they think she's died. She's eaten the apple and she's lying there, and all the dwarves are around her, and there's this organ music playing, and Nicholas was saying, I know this, I think I've played it. And we looked it up, and it was composed by Frank Churchill. It is original to Snow White, but it's so reminiscent of hymns like Abide With Me that it seemed so familiar. I guess, like a lot of things we've been saying in this film, there's so much familiarity, even when it is actually original.

Bronwen 1:17:01

Yeah, I mean Walt obviously was ahead of his time when it came to the use of music and animation. The music he wanted it to be very quaint and like very reminiscent, but he recognised that it stays with people after seeing the film, it's what they take away. After watching this film, I had the song that is called Bluddle Uddle Um Dum

Megan 1:17:24

The Washing Song.

Bronwen 1:17:25

Washing song, cleaning song, uh stuck in my head like during the night, it was really frustrating.

Megan 1:17:32

I've had One Song stuck in my head, as in the one with the title One Song, which was surprising to me because it's not one that I remembered particularly, but it's the one that has stayed with me this time, and it's the first one you hear in the overture.

Bronwen 1:17:47

Yeah, so and it really does support the emotional expression of the film. Like we say, it's such a simple story, but they really do support it. It's really scaffolded by the music, it wouldn't be anything without the music, I don't think.

Megan 1:18:00

No, absolutely, and the the melodies themselves are simple but so effective.

Bronwen 1:18:06

It was nominated for best original score at the 10th Oscars or 10th Academy Awards, I should say. It lost. Would you like to know what film it lost to?

Megan 1:18:17

Oh

Bronwen 1:18:18

The best original score? 100 Men and a Girl.

Megan 1:18:21

Oh.

Bronwen 1:18:22

I don't think I want to watch that.

Megan 1:18:24

I'm troubled. Seven Men and a Girl was bad enough.

Bronwen 1:18:29

I didn't know that there was a 1979 musical production based on this film.

Megan 1:18:35

No, that is news to me.

Bronwen 1:18:36

It did a small little tour around America and that was it.

Megan 1:18:39

Okay.

Bronwen 1:18:40

I don't think it was particularly successful. Uh the ones I knew from my CDs were Heigh Ho and Someday My Prince Will Come. Those were the two that uh were considered greatest hits.

Megan 1:18:51

Yes, I think if I were to guess it would be those two. I guess one that stayed with me from childhood was the Wishing Song.

Bronwen 1:19:01

Oh yeah.

Megan 1:19:01

I think because of the repetition, probably it just really stays with you.

Bronwen 1:19:06

Any other thoughts on the music?

Megan 1:19:07

Yeah, so I guess I was quite interested to learn about the history of synchronized sound and what they were doing here, really. You can really see the heritage of the silly symphonies um in this film. So apparently the whole thing was that with animation they wanted to put in sound effects. The easiest way to make sure that sound effects happened at the right time was to put them in the music so that you're working to a beat and they knew what beat that sound effect needed to come in on. So sound effects were recorded at the same time as the music, and often the voices were recorded at the same time, so everything is exactly where you want it to be, to the point where they often had like a clicker playing in their ears. And so I just I thought that was really cool learning about that.

Megan 1:20:01

I think the only other thing I wanted to say about the music was that the music is quite often or at significant moments, it's quite religious.

Bronwen 1:20:12

Yes.

Megan 1:20:12

So obviously you've got the pipe organ and you've got that particular scene where it sounds like a hymn.

Bronwen 1:20:17

Snow White even prays at one point.

Megan 1:20:18

Yes! And isn't it interesting? Because we don't see that a lot in Disney films. But also the end, you've got this amazing music playing when the prince wakes Snow White and she goes off on the horse, and ... actually it's before that point when she's lying in the coffin, there's this music that I I really do think it sounds like what I think heaven should sound like. It's so ethereal. And I remember being confused as a child by the final scene where they go off and there's this castle in the sky.

Bronwen 1:20:55

I have that as a note.

Megan 1:20:56

It looks like heaven!

Bronwen 1:20:58

Could one make the argument that she actually is dead and has just gone to heaven?

Megan 1:21:03

I wondered about that.

Bronwen 1:21:05

That's not... I think there's two ways of viewing the end - that she is genuinely woken up by the prince and she goes off to his castle, leaving all the dwarves, by the way. We'll come back to that.

Megan 1:21:16

We'll come back to that.

Bronwen 1:21:17

But also, it could be that, yeah, because it's a castle in the sky and it's all like lit up, it's all gold.

Megan 1:21:23

Yes, and the music is going up and up and up and up, and you've got bells at the end. It's very heavenly.

Bronwen 1:21:29

I think that is a reasonable way of interpreting the end.

Megan 1:21:32

Yes.

Bronwen 1:21:32

It's possible perhaps they did that perhaps deliberately, made it you can choose either way, which your preference is.

Megan 1:21:38

Yeah, I mean, I think I I always assume simplicity with this story, but it is very religious imagery.

Bronwen 1:21:46

Yes, it is, yeah, yeah.

Megan 1:21:47

And kind of, I am a religious person, you're a religious person, and it definitely makes me think in that way.

Bronwen 1:21:53

Yes, definitely.

Depiction of women

Bronwen 1:21:58

I think the thing we haven't touched on, perhaps, or maybe we could touch on a little bit more now that we're coming to the end of all of this, is thinking about this film from a feminist perspective and how we feel about watching it. I sort of focus those thoughts on the two main characters because that's kind of where this sits. The Queen versus Snow White, also known as Maiden versus Wicked Witch. It's the very classic simplification of the characterization of women. Okay. Here's my question: Why do you think that being fairest in the land is so important? Because that's what this whole film rests on being fairest.

Megan 1:22:38

Well, it's important to the queen.

Bronwen 1:22:40

Yes.

Megan 1:22:41

It's not important to Snow White.

Bronwen 1:22:42

That is very true. That is very true. Yes.

Megan 1:22:46

I mean she doesn't... Snow White doesn't even really know that that whole thing is going on.

Bronwen 1:22:50

That is very true. She doesn't know. So why is it so important to the queen?

Megan 1:22:54

I mean, again, I think it is just the simple message of vanity.

Bronwen 1:23:02

Yeah.

Megan 1:23:02

The Queen is vain.

Bronwen 1:23:03

And wicked.

Megan 1:23:04

She's a simple villain in that way. That's her one characteristic, is vanity.

Bronwen 1:23:10

And beauty is very much traditional femininity plus youth. That's what creates being fairest, it seems to me.

Megan 1:23:20

Yes, I mean it is significant that they were thinking of Snow White as being about 14, and this is when she becomes the fairest in the land. Like she wasn't before. But now she's on the cusp of womanhood.

Bronwen 1:23:30

It's sort of like puberty has played a role in this.

Megan 1:23:33

And like if we refer to the live-action film again, it is interesting to compare. They say something quite interesting. Yes, so when she becomes the fairest in the land, the magic mirror says that she's been awakened to the world.

Bronwen 1:23:48

Mmm. So one of the narratives around Snow White is how little agency she has. And actually the film surprised me a little bit, in she is assertive, but only with the non-traditionally human characters, i.e. the animals and the dwarves. She's helpless around the human characters, like the prince. She's like, and then when the queen comes as old granny, she kinda just does as she says.

Megan 1:24:15

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:24:15

Um, she offers to cook and clean for the dwarves in order to stay with them.

Megan 1:24:20

Yes. And she says, I'll keep house, I'll wash and sew and sweep and cook. And they're like, Oh, cook. They actually don't care about the other things. They were happy to have a dirty house, but then they really want those pies.

Bronwen 1:24:31

Way to a man's stomach, right? But also yeah, we need to talk about the upper class entitlement that Snow White shows. She lets herself into a home that isn't hers, she starts cleaning it without permission, she takes their bed, she goes and sleeps on it, and then just stays on it. And then the worst crime of all, I think, they're the ones that saved her life from the evil queen. When she wakes up, she goes off with the handsome prince, she kisses them all on the head, then leaves them.

Megan 1:25:03

Goodbye.

Bronwen 1:25:03

Isn't like I'll come find you.

Megan 1:25:06

So there's some lore on that.

Bronwen 1:25:08

Okay, okay. I just think that's very rude.

Megan 1:25:11

I agree. I think they they were thinking about sort of fixing that with a proposed sequel.

Bronwen 1:25:17

I remember reading about this, yes, that she was going to come back and bake them more apple pies.

Megan 1:25:22

So they were hoping to use those animated scenes that they had to cut. So the bedbuilding scene and the Music in Your Soup scene. So they were constructing a whole story about this where Snow White comes back for her annual visit.

Bronwen 1:25:36

She comes back once a year.

Megan 1:25:37

Yes.

Bronwen 1:25:39

Okay. How good of her.

Megan 1:25:41

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:25:41

Doesn't she just live down the road?

Megan 1:25:43

She lives up in the sky

Bronwen 1:25:45

to be fair.

Megan 1:25:45

She lives in heaven.

Bronwen 1:25:46

It might take a while for her to come down.

Megan 1:25:47

She died.

Bronwen 1:25:48

It might take her a while to come down. So here's my question to you, because you are more of an expert on this. In terms of the Bechtel test.

Megan 1:25:56

Ah so anyone who's not familiar with the Bechdel test, it's a very simple test of a film or really any other medium's representation of women, and it's a very simple test. To pass the Bechdel test, you have to have two named female characters talk to each other about something other than a man. So it's a it's a very low bar, and it is amazing how many films do not pass that. It is far from perfect.

Bronwen 1:26:27

Yes.

Megan 1:26:28

So in this... in this case, Snow White, and the Queen, as the peddler woman do speak to each other about something other than a man.

Bronwen 1:26:39

Yes, I agree.

Megan 1:26:40

Men do come up in the conversation, but it's not

Bronwen 1:26:43

They're not the subject.

Megan 1:26:44

No, and that uh that there's back and forth that is not about a man. The question is about the named part, because Snow White is called Snow White. The Queen, we never get a name for her. So that's the question mark over whether it passes the Bechdel test. I think we just have to accept that this is her name.

Bronwen 1:27:04

Yeah, being called Old Granny, the Queen, evil Queen, they don't really feel like names to me.

Megan 1:27:09

No, so I guess you could say that that means it doesn't pass the Bechdel test. I I think I have some overall thoughts about the depiction of women.

Bronwen 1:27:19

Yeah.

Megan 1:27:20

I think it's clearly not a feminist tale.

Bronwen 1:27:25

No.

Megan 1:27:26

But I think we just have to accept how simple this story is. We've been talking a lot about how it was designed to be simple. And I think, particularly if you compare the presentation of female characters to the presentation of male characters in this film, they are extremely one-dimensional.

Bronwen 1:27:48

All of them are one-dimensional.

Megan 1:27:49

The dwarves are named after their one characteristic.

Bronwen 1:27:52

The Prince doesn't have a name, he only speaks about five lines.

Megan 1:27:55

He has but one song.

Bronwen 1:27:57

Yeah.

Megan 1:27:57

One song.

Bronwen 1:27:59

That's all that's in his... rattling around in that brain. That's very true.

Megan 1:28:02

So we criticise the fact that Snow White, she's she immediately falls in love with this guy, and then she's just like mooning over him, and all she wants to do is to marry him. That's all the prince wants as well. That's his only motivation, is to be with Snow White. So

Bronwen 1:28:16

It was one... a good one song.

Megan 1:28:19

Yeah, it's it was stuck in my head.

Bronwen 1:28:21

That's very true. All of that is very true, I think. When you have something like this, you can't sort of pick it apart too much. I think later on, when we get into films where Disney is at least pretending to do more in terms of its female characters, we might be able to kind of be more critical. But I agree, I think that um I think even making their first film with a female character as the lead.

Megan 1:28:50

Yes, and as the villain.

Bronwen 1:28:52

And as the villain, yeah, is probably actually if we take it in the context of the time,

Megan 1:28:57

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:28:58

Pretty good.

Megan 1:28:58

Yes, I I agree with that.

Bronwen 1:29:00

Yeah.

Megan 1:29:01

Yeah, I've just got one bullet point here that I haven't said, which is to do with the presentation of women.

Bronwen 1:29:07

Yeah.

Megan 1:29:08

And it's it's just that moment when Snow White, um the little bunny has come up to her in the woods

Bronwen 1:29:16

I love that bunny.

Megan 1:29:17

And she goes, Oh, and she frightens all the animals and they all skitter away, and then she's so apologetic. And um she says, Oh, I'm awfully sorry, I didn't mean to frighten you. You don't know what I've been through.

Bronwen 1:29:31

Yeah. I'm so so a shamed of the mess I've made.

Megan 1:29:35

I'm so ashamed of the fuss I've made.

Bronwen 1:29:37

So I actually did have a whole thing on this, which I might actually do.

Megan 1:29:40

I thought ashamed was a significant word.

Bronwen 1:29:43

It's very, very well, that in the wood section is a really interesting representation of what we might call an unusual experience, unshared reality, and what will eventually, if you experience enough of that, what we might eventually call psychosis.

Megan 1:29:59

Ah, well we see the transformation, don't we, of the trees into hands.

Bronwen 1:30:04

Exactly.

Megan 1:30:05

So we understand that they are just trees, but she is seeing them as hands.

Bronwen 1:30:10

And I think the live-action version does not, this section doesn't work. The animation was so needed to show that because yeah, it's exactly that. We know like that that the logs aren't an alligator or whatever.

Megan 1:30:21

We see them change, yeah.

Bronwen 1:30:23

And she says, and all because I was afraid. This I'm not gonna I don't have time to get into this, I might come back to this on another film. It's what is called in psychology diathesis stress model, which explains why people experience psychosis. People will be vulnerable to experiencing differences in how they see things, that might be to do of genetics, it might be to do with trauma. Add in a stressful component to their lives, and then that can lead to people experiencing unusual things, things in a different way. And so I I think it's really interesting that her first experience in that the way you put that was shame, because that often is the first experience of people who experience things differently. Is I can't experience things in that way. That's dreadful of me to do. She went very quickly to a shame response rather than a oh, I wonder why I experienced that. That's really interesting. That's I can say from working with a lot of psychotic people over... that's often the first thing. I'm not again, I don't think Snow White is psychotic, but what she's experienced there is the edge of it.

Megan 1:31:23

Yes.

Bronwen 1:31:23

Uh of what is a spectrum of experience.

Megan 1:31:25

Yeah. Yeah, I mean we see all those eyes appear around her.

Bronwen 1:31:29

Yeah, and

Megan 1:31:30

Scary. Yes, it just made me kind of sad for her.

Bronwen 1:31:34

Yes.

Megan 1:31:34

That she was ashamed of being afraid.

Bronwen 1:31:36

And people have a lot of shame about when they experience things or see things in a way they're not supposed to, or their feelings about it aren't necessarily as calm and collected as they're supposed to be. But the animals do what we should do, which is still gather around and still love and care for, and it's okay that people experience things in different ways sometimes, particularly when they're stressed.

Megan 1:31:57

Yes, and she asks them, what do you do when things go wrong? Oh, you sing a song! And then we go into With a Smile and a Song.

Bronwen 1:32:06

That's all... for the record, that is not NHS guidance. NICE guidance for psychosis is not sing a song.

Final thoughts

Megan 1:32:18

Bronwen, would you like to start and tell us how out of five stars you would rate Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs 1937?

Bronwen 1:32:28

I will, Megan. Sorry I'm just finding it, so I gave this film three stars out of five. I think it's a watershed moment in animation, and the emotions that it's able to elicit through that animation and through the music really can't be underestimated. I sh... figuratively shake its hand for its cultural importance, but in terms of its enjoyment for me, and I think it comes back to the simplicity. I just need a little bit more in order to get that four or five stars. I need a little bit more in terms of its uh the story being a little bit more complex and its ability to reflect on itself and what it means, and so that is why I give it three stars out of five.

Megan 1:33:18

Very fair.

Bronwen 1:33:19

What about you, Megan?

Megan 1:33:20

For me, it's a solid three and a half stars. Again, like the Bechdel Test, the five-star system is limited. And it's very hard to rate a film that is this old.

Bronwen 1:33:31

It is, it is very hard. It feels you cannot, you know. I've given other Disney films. Let me just find another Disney film that I've given three stars to. Atlantis, The Lost Empire. I've given the same rating. You can't really rate them on the same scale. Like I so I agree with that.

Megan 1:33:50

Yes. But given it, it's it's helpful to sort of sharpen one's thoughts, isn't it, to try and put a number on it. I'm sitting at three and a half, um, because it is so it's so beautiful. It was so groundbreaking and impressive, and I appreciated that all the more from having done this research. I have fallen in love with the music, really. Um, I hadn't really thought about it before, but listening to the score, it's so evocative, and I could just see the film in my mind's eye listening to the score. But yes, it does have those flaws which are of the time, really, that we have discussed, which I don't want to incriminate it for.

Bronwen 1:34:39

No, I think that it shouldn't be made to over-apologise on behalf of its time when actually in so many ways it was ahead of its time.

Megan 1:34:48

Yes, oh massively, yes. And it's left us with such a legacy.

Bronwen 1:34:53

We wouldn't have, like we said, we wouldn't have the rest of Disney if it wasn't for this.

Megan 1:34:57

Yeah,

Bronwen 1:34:58

You know, well, we wouldn't have our Disney memories without this film.

Megan 1:35:01

Absolutely.

Bronwen 1:35:02

Even if it wasn't the film we go back to, yeah, yeah. We wouldn't be here.

Megan 1:35:05

We would be alive, we'd be in the world. We wouldn't be here recording this podcast.

Bronwen 1:35:10

It's like the butterfly effect from this film to our parents getting together.

Megan 1:35:13

You never know. Maybe, maybe, and I think it's such a perfect exhibition of the groundbreaking animation that they were coming out with. And I think I think the live-action remakes are nearly all pointless, but I think this one was particularly doomed because the intent of this film was to showcase animation. It's not about the story, it's very simple. So if you take away the animation aspect, what are you left with?

The next film draw

Bronwen 1:35:52

Okay, so

Megan 1:35:54

Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. We've started our started our journey! This is very exciting.

Bronwen 1:36:02

Is it time to decide what's next in the journey?

Megan 1:36:07

Yes.

Bronwen 1:36:08

You get to pull out the hat this time.

Megan 1:36:10

I do. I need to prepare the hat for you.

Bronwen 1:36:12

Yes.

Megan 1:36:12

I will prepare the hat. Oh my goodness.

Bronwen 1:36:15

Where are we going next? If it's Pinocchio.

Megan 1:36:20

So

Bronwen 1:36:21

I've got that silly song. No, no, no, it's your turn.

Megan 1:36:24

I'm shaking it for the microphone. The benefit of the microphone. Listen to those beautiful films in the beautiful hat. Right, now you can hold it.

Bronwen 1:36:36

Okay, here we go.

Megan 1:36:39

I have one. What could it be?

Bronwen 1:36:42

Okay.

Megan 1:36:43

Okay. Are you ready, Bronwen?

Bronwen 1:36:44

I'm ready. I'm ready.

Megan 1:36:46

Okay, what's it gonna be? It's Hercules.

Bronwen 1:36:50

Oh yes! Oh yes!

Megan 1:36:55

Oh you mentioned Hercules in our introductory episode and how much it means to you.

Bronwen 1:37:00

I'm gonna have to try and not cry while talking about this film. I love this film. This film is it means it means so much to me.

Megan 1:37:13

Oh, that's very exciting.

Bronwen 1:37:15

I'm so excited.

Megan 1:37:16

Really jumping across time, which is fun.

Bronwen 1:37:20

We're going to the Renaissance.

Megan 1:37:21

Going to the Renaissance, baby. That's so cool.

Bronwen 1:37:24

Back when the world was new.

Megan 1:37:26

Yeah. And we went to see the um West End musical of Hercules not that long ago, a few months ago.

Bronwen 1:37:35

It's alright.

Megan 1:37:35

We'll we'll discuss more of our thoughts.

Bronwen 1:37:37

You know the best thing about this though is that there is no live action to watch.

Megan 1:37:43

Not yet! There is a discussed one.

Bronwen 1:37:46

Yes, we can listen to the soundtrack for the musical version, but we don't have to watch a live action version, which is nice.

Megan 1:37:54

We can go into Greek myths.

Bronwen 1:37:56

You can, yes!

Megan 1:37:57

That's gonna be fun.

Bronwen 1:37:58

I I mean I'm gonna

Megan 1:38:00

Oh yeah, psychology.

Bronwen 1:38:01

I'm gonna talk about neurodiversity again. That is what I'm gonna be the neurodiversity god. I mean, Greek gods, why not?

Megan 1:38:08

Yeah.

Bronwen 1:38:08

We can talk about Megara when we're talking about particularly from a watching this film from a female perspective. Megara.

Megan 1:38:15

Yeah. And how she's supposed to be shaped like a Greek vase.

Bronwen 1:38:19

Pain and Panic.

Megan 1:38:21

Pain and Panic and what they did to them for the musical. Ooh!

Bronwen 1:38:25

This is exciting! That's a very good well-chosen. Well chosen.

Megan 1:38:30

Thank you.

Bronwen 1:38:31

Back when the world was new.

Megan 1:38:33

Right, so we will see you next month for Hercules.

Bronwen 1:38:39

You don't want to miss it.

Both 1:38:40

Gabble gabble gabble gabble!

Megan 1:38:45

Bye!

Bronwen 1:38:47

Goodbye.

Outro

Bronwen 1:38:48

This is not an official Disney podcast, and the views expressed are our own. Thanks for joining us on another stop on our walking tour through the Disney landscape. We look forward to seeing you next time. Until then, you can follow us @ gabble sisters on Instagram. Be sure to subscribe and rate us wherever you listen to your podcasts, and please recommend us to all your Disney pals. Tood ly pip!

Megan 1:39:15

Scanning through Pixar films in my mind. We watched the dinosaur one together. Can't even remember the name of it.

Bronwen 1:39:24

Who cares?

Megan 1:39:26

The The Lone Dinosaur? No, I'm thinking of the Land Before Time aren't I with that.

Bronwen 1:39:30

The lone dinosaur!

Megan 1:39:32

Dinosaur

Bronwen 1:39:35

No, not that.